[USA70PP]

During the game last night a penalty was called, really offsetting penalties, that none of the four of us understood. Movement in the line. Flags thrown. Conference. Result: Offsetting penalties, false start offense and offsides defense. We thought it should have only been false start, no play, so offsides on defense could not "occur".
Was this the correct call on the field or did the officals not get it right?

[WC12]

If they ruled that the false start and the encroachment (there is no "offsides" in high school football) occured at precisely the same time, then the penalties offset.

[bigdogg]

Should have been a false start only. The offense knows the count.

[FBUmp]

Originally Posted by USA70PP

We thought it should have only been false start, no play, so offsides on defense could not "occur".
Was this the correct call on the field or did the officals not get it right?

Encroachment is a dead ball foul, just like a false start is. The ball doesn't have to be snapped to have defensive encroachment.

Originally Posted by bigdogg

Should have been a false start only. The offense knows the count.

Knowing the count has nothing to do with it. There may not even be a count.

As WC12 posted, if the defense enters the NZ and the offense false starts simultaneously, the fouls offset. No one team is penalized over the other.

[USA70PP]

Thanks.
Now for another "Penalty or not" question. The offense sends plays in on each down with a back in for a back coming off. When the play is over the back that normally comes off when the player with the play comes in is near the sideline in front of his bench. He just steps off and the play comes in. As the incoming back gets to the huddle, a back breaks out and starts running to the sideline as if to get off the field. The defense, thinking it just a player for player exchange, pays no attention to the player "running off". He stops before going off the field, ball is snapped and he is wide open on the outside for a long pass and run touchdown.
Is this a penalty on the offense for "deception" or is it legal?

[North/Side]

At one time I believe that was (May still be?) legal. Can't remember if the rule was changed or not. I may be thinking of something else.

[FBUmp]

Originally Posted by USA70PP

Thanks.
Now for another "Penalty or not" question. The offense sends plays in on each down with a back in for a back coming off. When the play is over the back that normally comes off when the player with the play comes in is near the sideline in front of his bench. He just steps off and the play comes in. As the incoming back gets to the huddle, a back breaks out and starts running to the sideline as if to get off the field. The defense, thinking it just a player for player exchange, pays no attention to the player "running off". He stops before going off the field, ball is snapped and he is wide open on the outside for a long pass and run touchdown.
Is this a penalty on the offense for "deception" or is it legal?

It's illegal to use a pretended substitution to deceive the opponent.

[USA70PP]

Thanks. We kinda thought that, but weren't sure. Of course at our ages, four of us that sit together are all in our 70's, we are probably thinking of rules from forty or more years ago.

[bigdogg]

Originally Posted by FBUmp

Encroachment is a dead ball foul, just like a false start is. The ball doesn't have to be snapped to have defensive encroachment.




Knowing the count has nothing to do with it. There may not even be a count.

As WC12 posted, if the defense enters the NZ and the offense false starts simultaneously, the fouls offset. No one team is penalized over the other.

Try offsetting that play in the in the tournament and see what your observer thinks.

[WC12]

As an observer, I'd be very happy that the crew knew that the fouls would offset.

[FBUmp]

Originally Posted by bigdogg

Try offsetting that play in the in the tournament and see what your observer thinks.

If he doesn't know the rules any better than that, then I couldn't care less what he thinks. I've never made calls to make people happy, certainly not going to start at this stage of my career.

[Zunardo]

What I've never understood is, when is that encroachment occurs, but the play is allowed to develop and run its course?

During such a play, the TV announcer typically says the offense has a "free play"), and the offense goes ahead, knowing they can take the penalty (if no gain) or refuse the penalty if they got more than five yards.

Does the timing of the encroachment matter? Are there some encroachment violations in the play is whistled dead before it begins?

[bigdogg]

Originally Posted by WC12

As an observer, I'd be very happy that the crew knew that the fouls would offset.

They indeed do, but tell me the last time you saw one called that way on TV? Philosophy says hang it on the offense for the reason I said. But, hey ask around for yourself.

[FBUmp]

Originally Posted by Zunardo

What I've never understood is, when is that encroachment occurs, but the play is allowed to develop and run its course?

During such a play, the TV announcer typically says the offense has a "free play"), and the offense goes ahead, knowing they can take the penalty (if no gain) or refuse the penalty if they got more than five yards.

Does the timing of the encroachment matter? Are there some encroachment violations in the play is whistled dead before it begins?

Encorachment occurs in high school football.

Offsides occurs in NCAA and NFL games. Under their rules, the foul does not occur until the ball is snapped. It's not a dead ball foul. If the defense jumps and is able to get back without causing the offense to foul, then there's no offsides.

[WC12]

Originally Posted by bigdogg

They indeed do, but tell me the last time you saw one called that way on TV? Philosophy says hang it on the offense for the reason I said. But, hey ask around for yourself.

What does TV have anything to do with this?

Philosophy (and Defensive Coaches) also says "watch the ball!"

The rule is the rule, whether the situation presents itself frequently or not.

[Zunardo]

Originally Posted by FBUmp

Encorachment occurs in high school football.

Offsides occurs in NCAA and NFL games. Under their rules, the foul does not occur until the ball is snapped. It's not a dead ball foul. If the defense jumps and is able to get back without causing the offense to foul, then there's no offsides.

Thanks, FBUmp.

Now that I think about, I almost never hear the TV announcer say "free play" during a high school game.

[bigdogg]

Good discussion on it here.

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=5881.0