[CCL_Rules]

I think the private schools will leave the Ohsaa if this passes. Thus killing great competition in ohio for both private and public. Water down championships. This is a real shame

[ncgwirish]

Public schools are being penalized here as well with the tradition factor. If you win too much you go up a division or have 10% enrollment added to your student totals.

The only ones that benefit from this system are those that have mediocre programs.

[HistoryBuff]

Originally Posted by bobby

What percent of schools in Ohio, public and private, have won a football title. A pretty small percentage have won a large percentage of the state titles.

Unfortunately I wouldn't know and really don't have the time to research that. The numbers that I quoted were from the OHSAA article.

But that is where the "tradition" factor will kick in. Let's also remember that this competivie balance arguement is being made in alot of sports and this new idea will treat each sport individually. So being successful in Boys Soccer, for example, won't have any bearing on the where the division where the Baseball team will end up.

It would be conceivable that a school could have sports in three different divisions based on the tradition factor of some of them. Boys Basketball could be D1, Baseball in D2 and Boys Soccer in D3 for example.

I think this is just going to create a mess.

[HistoryBuff]

Originally Posted by CCL_Rules

I think the private schools will leave the Ohsaa if this passes. Thus killing great competition in ohio for both private and public. Water down championships. This is a real shame

There are a group of schools in Ohio who want exactly that to happen. They want a seperate division for private schools and won't be happy until that happens. Many private schools have mentioned that they will leave the OHSAA if that happens. I'm not sure this plan would drive as many schools out as seperate divisions. I can't see the small Christian schools, most of who are very small D4 schools and won't move up to D3, leaving just because of this plan.

The issue for the schools that want to leave is going to be whether enough schools will leave the OHSAA to build an effective association to run the state tournaments. A rogue State Association of private & catholic schools won't last long if enough of them don't leave.

[bobby]

Originally Posted by HistoryBuff

There are a group of schools in Ohio who want exactly that to happen. They want a seperate division for private schools and won't be happy until that happens. Many private schools have mentioned that they will leave the OHSAA if that happens. I'm not sure this plan would drive as many schools out as seperate divisions. I can't see the small Christian schools, most of who are very small D4 schools and won't move up to D3, leaving just because of this plan.

The issue for the schools that want to leave is going to be whether enough schools will leave the OHSAA to build an effective association to run the state tournaments. A rogue State Association of private & catholic schools won't last long if enough of them don't leave.

The same group wants to also propose that OHSAA schools would not be permitted to play non-OHSAA schools, meaning if private schools leave the OHSAA and form their own association the public schools can't play them.

If more and more "tweaking" is done which further affects private schools, what point is there in staying in the OHSAA? You're right, the Wayne County Supt's want separation and will continue to work until that happens.

[BradleyJaguars]

Originally Posted by HistoryBuff

There are a group of schools in Ohio who want exactly that to happen. They want a seperate division for private schools and won't be happy until that happens.

If they want that, they should leave the OHSAA and form their own organization.

[Lancer59]

I thought school sports were to develop kids by improving their social skills, leadership skills, team skills. To keep them busy thus keeping them out of trouble. Getting the off the couch with no game controllers in their hands.

Why are people so concerned about how their team does in the state tourneys?
Is it because they think their kid will be more recruited the farther they go in the tourney? If so, what is the percentage of kids that will actually play all 4 years of their sport in college, pretty low I would guess.

[HistoryBuff]

Originally Posted by Lancer59

I thought school sports were to develop kids by improving their social skills, leadership skills, team skills. To keep them busy thus keeping them out of trouble. Getting the off the couch with no game controllers in their hands.

Why are people so concerned about how their team does in the state tourneys?
Is it because they think their kid will be more recruited the farther they go in the tourney? If so, what is the percentage of kids that will actually play all 4 years of their sport in college, pretty low I would guess.

Excellent points.

To somewhat answer your last question with some data I know... Only 2% of ALL high school athletes get ANY type of money from colleges for athletics.

Parents think that athletics is going to pay the way....its not. Parents will sit there and sink thousands of dollars into summer/travel teams and private lessons and then end up getting nothing for college. I was listening to one parent last summer who complained that he had spent $20,000 for his daughter to have private lessons and play on club teams and his daughter got no "serious" offers from colleges. (a three year starter btw)

That is the sad reality of school sports today... everyone thinks that their son/daughter will get college paid for. Most college scouts (and most good high school coaches) can tell you by the time the kid reaches 12 years old whether or not they have a serious chance at playing in college.


I will say that State Tournament appearances, especially in the major sports of Football & Boys & Girls Basketball, can go a long way in helping a community. It gives a sense of pride to the community (and has been known to help pass levies....lol). I think that is what is so frustrating to alot of public schools.... the inability to get to the State Tournaments for that success and community pride because so many private schools, which in many cases have no "communities," knock them out and they are from a number of different areas.

[BradleyJaguars]

Originally Posted by HistoryBuff

I think that is what is so frustrating to alot of public schools.... the inability to get to the State Tournaments for that success and community pride because so many private schools, which in many cases have no "communities," knock them out and they are from a number of different areas.

One does not need to be from the same geographic location to be a community. Many private schools are very much a community.

[HistoryBuff]

Originally Posted by BradleyJaguars

One does not need to be from the same geographic location to be a community. Many private schools are very much a community.

I disagree. A community like Upper Arlington, Groveport or even the area served by Hilliard Bradley is much more than the community associated with a private school. The "community" for a multi-district high school can even be greater. You can't tell me that Darby & Bradley fans were not rooting for Davidson when they won the State Football title or that Pickerington North wasn't cheering on and getting on the bandwagon for the Pickerington Central Tigers last month in basketball.

Go to a tournament game and see the crowds for public school teams as compared to private school teams. I was watching the state tournament games for basketball. Did you see the spirt and crowds for teams like Hiland, Arlington, St. Clairsville? They were rabid fans and came in large numbers compared to the private schools. What are some of the bigger football playoff crowds??? Tri-Valley, Steubenville, Massillon, Trotwood, Pickerington Central. Went to a DeSales playoff game....not nearly as large as some of the other schools I mentioned.

So, yes.... the schools from "communities" are bigger than those of the private schools. It is more a sense of "identity" because of the geographic location.

[tcsoup]

I tend to disagree HB. The Catholic community of private schools at least here in Columbus is very tight nit group. If you had attended any of those school you would understand. The Hartley, Watterson, Desales, Ready and yes even St Charles Alumni and fans always will root and support each other. I can't tell you how many people I know that have married someone from another Catholic school here in C-bus . Many Alumni know each other from The Shamrock Club, or Itialian clubs, and many other social events including supporting many of the older churches like Scared Heart or St. Johns downtown which draws many Catholic families from all over Columbus.
Many of the St. Paul families in Westerville have roots from St. Anthony, St James, St, Mathais, St. Augustine, St Gabriel and several other parishes which originated in Cols.
If your a graduate of a Cols. Private Catholic school and go any where in Franklin county and see a another schools Varsity jacket or sticker on a car window and strike up a conversation you will find within minutes that person knows several people you do or are associate with.
Just for the record look at the State Football playoffs from year before last The Mooney D3 Championship game out drew the D2 Championship game which had Maple Heights and I think Trodwood Madison by a decent number . Check the crowds for the D1 Catholic school regular season games played down in Cincy many of them at Paul Brown Stadium.
Last years Desales crowd had a small turn out over in Dayton for several reasons . It was the 2nd year in a row Desales as the higher seed had to travel clear on the other side of Dayton for a 2nd round game . Plus that week the Girls and Boys soccer teams had Regional Semi and Finals games both the boys out of town and the girls Volleyball team played a out of town Regional game north of Mansfield the same week and weekend. Only so many students and parents can go to each of these events.
Their home playoff game in week 1 with Watterson the year before was packed as usual.

[wkfan]

Originally Posted by HistoryBuff

I think that is what is so frustrating to alot of public schools.... the inability to get to the State Tournaments for that success and community pride because so many private schools, which in many cases have no "communities," knock them out and they are from a number of different areas.

Not for me.

What is most frustrating is that the Private vs. Public is not a level playing field.

Public schools have to take whomever lives in their attendance area and comes through their doors.

Private schools have a much larger area that they can draw from and can 'encourage' a prospective student that coming to their school is in their 'best interests' and can turn away a student that they do not want.

[Hartley Football]

Originally Posted by wkfan

Not for me.

Private schools have a much larger area that they can draw from and can 'encourage' a prospective student that coming to their school is in their 'best interests' and can turn away a student that they do not want.

I would love to know your experience on how private schools 'encourage' prospective students that coming to their school is in their 'best interest'

I would love to see yours/anyone's encouraging skills
"Hey come to Hartley/Watterson/DeSales. Its in your best interests to come to our school and play some ball! Whats that? Tuition...Yea, for only 8,000 you can come play some ball! I know your school now is free, but it is in your best interest to play 8000 to play some ball!"

I hate to burst your bubble, but that ain't how it works! No one is 'encouraging' anyone to make that kind of investment so that they can play in some games. Overwhelmingly, those people that attend private schools do so for the 'total environment' in the specific schools. If parents are going to make that kind of investment, sports arent going to typically be at the forefront.

And before you argue, I have been involved with both public and private schools.

[Jackboy]

Originally Posted by Hartley Football

I would love to know your experience on how private schools 'encourage' prospective students that coming to their school is in their 'best interest'

I would love to see yours/anyone's encouraging skills
"Hey come to Hartley/Watterson/DeSales. Its in your best interests to come to our school and play some ball! Whats that? Tuition...Yea, for only 8,000 you can come play some ball! I know your school now is free, but it is in your best interest to play 8000 to play some ball!"

I hate to burst your bubble, but that ain't how it works! No one is 'encouraging' anyone to make that kind of investment so that they can play in some games. Overwhelmingly, those people that attend private schools do so for the 'total environment' in the specific schools. If parents are going to make that kind of investment, sports arent going to typically be at the forefront.

And before you argue, I have been involved with both public and private schools.

Then why is it that private schools"reload" year in year out? While public schools might have one good year then go 2,3 maybe 4 years before they are competitive again.

[bobby]

Originally Posted by wkfan

Not for me.

What is most frustrating is that the Private vs. Public is not a level playing field.

Public schools have to take whomever lives in their attendance area and comes through their doors.

Private schools have a much larger area that they can draw from and can 'encourage' a prospective student that coming to their school is in their 'best interests' and can turn away a student that they do not want.

If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. All you have to do is look at several of the public schools in this year's state basketball tournament. Several had very good players who didn't just happen to "come through their doors". Those players ended up at those schools to play basketball. Many public schools are very "encouraging" to prospective students/athletes.
I think it's about 63% of Ohio public schools are statewide open enrollment meaning they can attract/encourage students from the entire state of Ohio. Another 13-15% are adjacent open enrollment giving them a pretty large area to "encourage" students from, as well.

[Hartley Football]

Originally Posted by Jackboy

Then why is it that private schools"reload" year in year out? While public schools might have one good year then go 2,3 maybe 4 years before they are competitive again.

I dont know why or how they reload. Let me ask Watterson: State Champions in 2010, 3-7 in 2011.

As for the Open Enrollment factor, that might not be as big of a factor as you might think. According to OHSAA, a student may transfer but sit out a year if they do not have residence in the district. I dont see many athletes sitting out a year, therefore most are moving into the district in some way, shape or form. FWIW, the issue has much to do with multiple residencies. Many communities with 'transient' residencies (ie apartments). That might be an area where many students are 'moving into' the disrtict. If you look at potential 'shady dealings' with players coming and going you have to follow where they decide to establish residency.

We can argue day and night about perceived advantages one school has over another. I would encourage you to go and visit and get to know the most successful programs in Central Ohio. Then go and take a look at the teams that always seem to struggle. Take a hard look at why they are successful or struggle. You might find it goes much deeper than talent.

[JC88]

Maybe those who send their children to a private school should get some real estate tax relief to level the field when it comes to paying for two or more school systems?

[BradleyJaguars]

Originally Posted by Jackboy

Then why is it that private schools"reload" year in year out? While public schools might have one good year then go 2,3 maybe 4 years before they are competitive again.

Ask the people at Colerain, Hilliard Davidson, Lehman Catholic, and LaSalle this question, just to name a few.

[formerhawk10]

Originally Posted by Jackboy

Then why is it that private schools"reload" year in year out? While public schools might have one good year then go 2,3 maybe 4 years before they are competitive again.

Its called tradition. The CCL now has some 3rd generation families coming through the doors. Sons that want to follow where the fathers and grandfathers went to school. This debate goes on and on and on every year. There is no easy solution but to suit up and play your best against the kids on the other side of the ball. Work hard in the off season and prepare the week before the game. There are many of kids that "move" into public schools also to play. Look at open enrollment Northland has built a tradition in basketball, Marion Franklin has one in football. I know my post wont end the "private" vs "public" debate but had to put my 2 cents in.

[bazzfazz50]

This whole discussion reminds me of a Cub Scout Pine-Wood Derby where everyone who participates gets a trophy! Just leave things alone. It's too bad that some parents have to ruin things for everybody. Just my opinion...I could be wrong!