Ask the Wrestling ref (s) - Page 16

refman · (#301)

I would send a email to Hank and ask him directly about it. See what his take on it is.

pro5064 · (#302)

This a question more about philosophy when it comes to stalling. I watched hundreds of matches this week at a district tournament. I noticed with numerous referees that stalling was called in situations where I believed the wrestlers should have been allowed to wrestle without any call. These situations were as follows: Top wrestler is extremely tough on top, he is working to establish control of his opponent to turn him but bottom guy is also tough. It is taking the top guy some time to work his game but he is working hard. Top guy is called for stalling. Situation 2: Two guys working very hard on their feet to break each others position to score. They are in a hand fighting dog fight. Both are excellent. Both are called for stalling. Why!! Let them work in my opinion. If one is battling and the other is doing nothing, then make the call, but if they are both active, let them go. Situation 3: Bottom guy has his arm barred and top guy has a leg in but is unable to turn bottom guy. Ref calls bottom guy for stalling instead of stalemate. What can bottom guy do to escape in this postition. Top guy is tough bottom guy is tough to turn. Call the stalemate an let them continue. These stalling calls often cause kids to make poor decisions that negatively impact the match.

refman · (#303)

pro5064....all are good questions.

Tough for me to answer based on I wasn't there...I didn't see all the action and what occurred prior to the calls. Based on what you wrote..and solely on that...I might have either not called it or maybe called a stale mate.
Too often, from what I see at time...refs make a stalling call on the wrong guy.
In your 1st situation...if i have 2 tough kids...the bottom guy is allowed to counter...but he does have to also work to get out.
2nd situation...on their feet...both are working...shooting..countering...I will usually let it play out. Stalling in the neutral is pretty easy to see. One kid is moving forward...other is backing.
Situation 3 I see a lot...bottom kid is barred up...top guy cant turn him. What we want is for the top guy to then switch off to something else...what I do is call a stalemate...tell each to work and that should be the clue to go to something different. If at that time...top guy goes back to same move...and/or bottom guy doesn't work to get out....my stalling calls start to kick in. I try and communicate what I what...if the kids and coaches listen....its easy NOT to get the stalling calls.

pro5064 · (#304)

Quote:

Originally Posted by refman

pro5064....all are good questions.

Tough for me to answer based on I wasn't there...I didn't see all the action and what occurred prior to the calls. Based on what you wrote..and solely on that...I might have either not called it or maybe called a stale mate.
Too often, from what I see at time...refs make a stalling call on the wrong guy.
In your 1st situation...if i have 2 tough kids...the bottom guy is allowed to counter...but he does have to also work to get out.
2nd situation...on their feet...both are working...shooting..countering...I will usually let it play out. Stalling in the neutral is pretty easy to see. One kid is moving forward...other is backing.
Situation 3 I see a lot...bottom kid is barred up...top guy cant turn him. What we want is for the top guy to then switch off to something else...what I do is call a stalemate...tell each to work and that should be the clue to go to something different. If at that time...top guy goes back to same move...and/or bottom guy doesn't work to get out....my stalling calls start to kick in. I try and communicate what I what...if the kids and coaches listen....its easy NOT to get the stalling calls.

Thanks. I wish everyone had the same philosophy.

pro5064 · (#305)

Quote:

Originally Posted by refman

pro5064....all are good questions.

Tough for me to answer based on I wasn't there...I didn't see all the action and what occurred prior to the calls. Based on what you wrote..and solely on that...I might have either not called it or maybe called a stale mate.
Too often, from what I see at time...refs make a stalling call on the wrong guy.
In your 1st situation...if i have 2 tough kids...the bottom guy is allowed to counter...but he does have to also work to get out.
2nd situation...on their feet...both are working...shooting..countering...I will usually let it play out. Stalling in the neutral is pretty easy to see. One kid is moving forward...other is backing.
Situation 3 I see a lot...bottom kid is barred up...top guy cant turn him. What we want is for the top guy to then switch off to something else...what I do is call a stalemate...tell each to work and that should be the clue to go to something different. If at that time...top guy goes back to same move...and/or bottom guy doesn't work to get out....my stalling calls start to kick in. I try and communicate what I what...if the kids and coaches listen....its easy NOT to get the stalling calls.

Ref man, with that philosphy established on stalling, here is the next question. I was coaching a match in which our kid was in the conso semis. In the first one minute period our guy takes the other guy down twice. Our guy comes out in the second on top cuts the other guy and is in on a leg within 30 seconds. Both guys go out of bounds and reset in center. Our guy elbows off and is again deep in on a shot, within another 30 seconds. Our guy it the guy moving forward from center toward edge. By the time he has secured the leg and come to his feet he is again close to the edge. The oponent is fighting hard and our guy dives for the opposite ankle to try to take him down before they go off the mat. Our guy secures the ankle but the ref calls them out of bounds, other guy is on his butt our guy is attempting to stay in bounds and toe tap. No problem so far. But our guy gets hit for stalling. I am in disbelief. When questioned the ref says out guy is playing the edge. I explain that our guy has initiated every offensive point in the match has had 4 successful attacks in less than 3 minutes and is hit with stalling. What gives with that. The other ref on the mat did absolutely nothing, an this guy had an attitude about it when I talked with him about it. The impression I got was "how dare you question me." This was terrible. Our kid lost this match because on a subsequent attack he again has the leg in the air and is forced to alter his finish and try to tug the guy back in. He gets out of position because of this and a scramble ensues that is lost by our guy. This call in effect influenced the way our guy wrestled and more than likely took our guy out of a successful plan of attack that he had developed for this opponent. He was dominating this match up to that point. The other wrestler has taken shots, maybe 2, but never came close to getting in our guys legs.

refman · (#306)

Pro5064...do you have video of this? Would love to see it.
I am not a shot counter...but I keep track of who had done what. In your scenario above, not sure how that ref could make that call.
I wasn't there...its hard to make a call based on one side, but based just on your version, I dont understand the call. But...please send me a clip if you can. Post it on you tube or wherever...pretty easy to do.
Thanks

pro5064 · (#307)

Quote:

Originally Posted by refman

Pro5064...do you have video of this? Would love to see it.
I am not a shot counter...but I keep track of who had done what. In your scenario above, not sure how that ref could make that call.
I wasn't there...its hard to make a call based on one side, but based just on your version, I dont understand the call. But...please send me a clip if you can. Post it on you tube or wherever...pretty easy to do.
Thanks

I will check to see if anyone has video. I realize that you want to remain unbiased and neutral and have a great appreciation for that. Just an aside on that call. I was coaching and approached the table. We thought he just made a mistake and called the stalling on the wrong guy. Our guy wrestled out of a 3 point stance, closed the distance, engaged, came out of the 3 point, and hit and elbow off on every shot and got it deep, picking the leg completely off the mat. He also had several shot attempts that he missed with the same scenario. The action of both wrestlers took them to the edge almost every time except for one that was finished in the center. These were two very good wrestlers. They should have been allowed to just wrestle. It was very frustrating. I can find out the guys name if you want and sent it to you. He accused our guy of wrestling the edge. It was crazy to say the least.

refman · (#308)

Pro5064....I can tell you that I have sat at the State Tournament in the past and seen stall calls made that for the life of me...couldn't figure out why the ref called the stall call that he did.
So I can't explain them all.
Also...and I realize this will re-open a can of worms, but the better the wrestlers...the higher the level of stalling calls. Two good wrestlers don't stall like two lower level wrestlers.

pro5064 · (#309)

Quote:

Originally Posted by refman

Pro5064....I can tell you that I have sat at the State Tournament in the past and seen stall calls made that for the life of me...couldn't figure out why the ref called the stall call that he did.
So I can't explain them all.
Also...and I realize this will re-open a can of worms, but the better the wrestlers...the higher the level of stalling calls. Two good wrestlers don't stall like two lower level wrestlers.

No can of worms opened here! This was a good match between two good guys and there was no stalling. I don't think the other guy was stalling either. I guess my point is that there should not have been a call. both guys were wrestling hard and this guy for some reason thought he had to do something or he wasn't doing his job. I just can't understand that mentality. It influenced the way the one wrestler ended up wrestling and in my opinion it cost him the match. Likewise it influenced the way the other guy wrestled. This should never happen.

huskerdoc63 · (#310)

On the topic of stalling...Please make it clear that it says in the rule book, if you are over powered by the other guy that in NOT considered stalling. At the middle school level, I had a kid (not very strong or athletic) get taken down by a kid. While on bottom he could do nothing...not because he was stalling just because he literally couldn't. The kid on top (A ripped ox) was dominating my kid. Not that it would affect the out come in any way, shape or form. But my kid got dinged with a stalling. At the end of the match I mentions the over powered part about stalling and he told me it doesn't exsist. I laughed, said yes sir, moved on.

refman · (#311)

Huskerdoc63...yep...it says it loud and clear in the rulebook. If it was one of my guys...let me know who and I will "educate" him.

huskerdoc63 · (#312)

It was at the Davis Duals...not sure which ref...I know it was against Blendon.

refman · (#313)

One of the things that I would like OHSAA to do is make the licensing process a mandatory 2 year classroom situation. The first year is basics etc...the second year, they can start to learn more about stalling/fleeing on a formal basis. I think this can only help.

wrestler333 · (#314)

My question is if the move (neck wrench) is legal or not. Its very frustrating to hear that there are grey areas.

refman · (#315)

This clip shows a legal "wrench", but notice, the neck is not used....the shoulder is:
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/405131-neck-wrench

If the neck is used...it is illegal.
Rule 7-1-2 says:
ART. 5 . . . Other illegal holds/maneuvers include, but are not limited to: (Photos 38 through 90)

a. a double underhook snap back from the standing position;

b. the hammerlock above the right angle;

c. the twisting hammerlock along with lifting the elbow off the back in a hammerlock situation;

d. any headlock in which the arms or hands are locked around the opponent's head without encircling an arm (elbow or above) or leg (except in the guillotine after near-fall criteria has been met or ¾ Nelson);

e. straight head scissors (even though an arm is included);

f. full nelson;

g. holds/maneuvers putting pressure on the throat and/or carotid artery;

h. twisting kneelock taken against the joint and/or away from the body;

i. keylock;

j. overhead double arm bar;

k. locking the hands behind the back in a double arm bar from the front;

l. neck wrench;

huskerdoc63 · (#316)

situation...

Kid gets taken down in head and arm to his back, ref give T2, starts counting back points, once he gets to the point of awarding the NF3, he notices that the kid on top doesn't have a arm and blows whistle.

What happens next?

refman · (#317)

The referee has to determine a few things
1. Was the TD legal? Was there an arm there to begin with?
2. If it was legal...when did it become illegal?
3. If the bottom man pulled his arm out...when did he and...if he did it is PD not illegal but still must be stopped.
4. There is no way the referee can give back points if the top guy still has the same situation....that situation must stop before bp's can be given.
5. He must determine when the arm came out...if it was there to begin with...and how.

Walking Boss · (#318)

Quote:

Originally Posted by huskerdoc63

On the topic of stalling...Please make it clear that it says in the rule book, if you are over powered by the other guy that in NOT considered stalling. At the middle school level, I had a kid (not very strong or athletic) get taken down by a kid. While on bottom he could do nothing...not because he was stalling just because he literally couldn't. The kid on top (A ripped ox) was dominating my kid. Not that it would affect the out come in any way, shape or form. But my kid got dinged with a stalling. At the end of the match I mentions the over powered part about stalling and he told me it doesn't exsist. I laughed, said yes sir, moved on.

Husk: Agree 100%. Especially at the heavier weights in MS (and sometime up into HS).

Many of these kids haven't developed the upper body strength to get a 245 or 285 off their backs. Sometimes can't even get air space between their bellies and the mats. You get a fat 285 or 245 laying on a underdeveliped 220 or 230 and he is not getting up. Often times they are strong enough to avoid being turned over and pinned, but not strong enough to get up. I've long thought the right answer would be to declare a stalemate and, at a minimum, put them back in the center in the down position rather than a stalling call.

huskerdoc63 · (#319)

thanks refman...what the ref did was stop the match. He then awarded top man NF3 plus 1 for stoppage. Then, gave the other guy that was about to get pinned a P1, for the illegal hold.
I questioned him about it and he said it was in the rule book under one of the case studies, told me to look it up. I told him he was reading it wrong and to recheck it. I asked another official...he said the guy was reading the rule wrong as well.

hlsportsnut · (#320)

Husker,
I am not sure why the official would give the extra point for the stoppage. If the pinning move was stopped because it became illegal the only way the pinning wreslter should earn an extra point is if the official felt the wrestler being pinned made the hold iilegal. In that case the bottom wrestler would not be awarded any points as in your case. When a wrestler acheives nearfall referees have alot to look for, hands in the face, legal holds, and of course the pin itself. Most officials will imediatly look to make sure the hold is legal then cover the fall and continue to check the hold and the hands to the face as they look for the fall.