[wulffie]

Originally Posted by DGUtley

Then quit trying to make Catholics of conscience pay for abortitants and birth control.

Tell it to the catholic women who want the therapies and services, not me.

Originally Posted by DGUtley

If I pay the premiums, shouldn't i get to not violate my conscience in doing so?

You share in the costs of all the services offered but have no right to restrict others in what services they choose. Some others might object on their own moral grounds to a service or therapy YOU want and is covered. why should they be able to prevent you any more than you should be able to prevent THEM.

Originally Posted by DGUtley

It is a violation of the right of the free exercise of religion for the Government to force the Catholic employers to violate their own consciences by making them provide, pay for, and/or facilitate those services to others, contrary to their sincerely held religious beliefs.

It is no violation of anybody's right to free exercise of religion as health care insurance plans have nothing to do with a person exercising his right to decline any service offered by the health care plan, which any person may do.

It is equally valid to argue that You and yours are the ones trying to violate other people's right to ignore the dogma of the Catholic Church.

[19AL63]

No one is telling you that you have to work for a company owned by the Catholic Church , if you do not like the wages and benefits, go find another job. In this great country of ours we sill do have freedom of choice.

[fbbfan]

Originally Posted by 19AL63

No one is telling you that you have to work for a company owned by the Catholic Church , if you do not like the wages and benefits, go find another job. In this great country of ours we sill do have freedom of choice.

Do we still have freedom of choice? I question that when you have people in power telling banks to stop lending money to gun makers till they support the new gun bans being proposed by Obama’s administration.

For the question being asked in this thread, the fact is most democrats wants God and religion out of government. If you watched the democratic convention that was pretty clear. Let’s pray that never happens!!!!

[DGUtley]

When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing. What did I care? I wasn't Catholic. When they came for the . . . .

[wisdome]

Originally Posted by 19AL63

No one is telling you that you have to work for a company owned by the Catholic Church , if you do not like the wages and benefits, go find another job. In this great country of ours we sill do have freedom of choice.

Naw that never happened and if it did it was Bush's fault!

[wulffie]

Originally Posted by DGUtley

When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing. What did I care? I wasn't Catholic. When they came for the . . . .

HAHahaa written as the people of Germany and Europe including the Roman Catholic Church stood by and protested nothing as the Third Reich swept up jews, communists, homosexuals, gypsies and "intellectuals" and shipped them to concentration camps.

First they came...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: Martin Niemöller
“First they came…” is a famous statement attributed to pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. There is some disagreement over the exact wording of the quotation and when it was created; the content of the quotation may have been presented differently by Niemöller on different occasions.[1]

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

I think you are getting a little melodramatic here, Counselor.

Nobody is coming to load Catholics into cattle cars and ship them off to concentration camps.

[wulffie]

Originally Posted by 19AL63

No one is telling you that you have to work for a company owned by the Catholic Church , if you do not like the wages and benefits, go find another job. In this great country of ours we sill do have freedom of choice.

True enough. But the assertion that the law requiring these "non profit" organizations to include treatments and services in the health care policies PAID for by the EMPLOYEES.... impinges on the freedom to exercise the religion of the BOARD of DIRECTORS is ludicrous.

It impinges on the freedom of their employees to make personal health care decisions in consultation with their personal physician, to deny these employees choices in what kinds of therapies and treatments are available to them.

The Catholic Priests and the Boards of Directors say they know better than the employees, what is best for them, because an obsolete prince in an obsolete european principality... SAID SO.

Catholic Priests know a LOT about female reproductive health care!

The idiocy of these Priests trying to dictate health care policy by alleging that their INDIVIDUAL right to exercise their religion freely is impinged upon -- boggles the mind.

That seems to be how they can get away with alleging it. It is so idiotic it makes sense to a lot of people.

The Male Priests and Head Priest (women are EXCLUDED from the ELITE PRIESTHOOD) Declare that they know better than the women over whom they dictate, what is best for them.

After all, these are the very descendants of EVE who caused the fall of man in the first place, they say - by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (God wanted idiot robot subjects, not knowing the difference between good and evil, as a preferred mentality for his Pets)

The descendants of EVE have been paying for that indiscretion for millenia.

Why stop beating them down now?

The Catholic Church says: Its that 50 Shades of Grey thing..... the women actually LIKE it.

[19AL63]

Once again do not like? Do not work for them take your talents elsewhere. From the time I left college and went to work to make a livable wage, I worked for eight different companies before I retired and of those eight, six of those jobs were terminated because I chose to end my career with them. I changed for wages, benefits, location, type of work. nothing has changed in this world yet that you can not do the same. I do not believe jobs should be change to make you happy, if you are unhappy find a different job. I worked for a man once that told me he did not care who died, he expected me to be at work. I guess he did not think my going to a funeral was necessary. Only continued to work for that company until I found another job. I did not try to change his rules, I just decided I could not work under those rules.

[wulffie]

Originally Posted by 19AL63

Once again do not like? Do not work for them take your talents elsewhere. From the time I left college and went to work to make a livable wage, I worked for eight different companies before I retired and of those eight, six of those jobs were terminated because I chose to end my career with them. I changed for wages, benefits, location, type of work. nothing has changed in this world yet that you can not do the same. I do not believe jobs should be change to make you happy, if you are unhappy find a different job. I worked for a man once that told me he did not care who died, he expected me to be at work. I guess he did not think my going to a funeral was necessary. Only continued to work for that company until I found another job. I did not try to change his rules, I just decided I could not work under those rules.

These are not work rules. This is the choice of health care services provided as a portion of the total compensation "package" for employees, whose own money pays for the benefit, and who therefore, SHOULD have the full legal right to the full choice of benefits available under other employers, as required by law, and in the end, the issue is that theman's law trumps religious doctrinal law, PERIOD......OR.. they can indeed leave,

(which is what all the female employees of the Catholic hospitals or health care providers should do, and leave the men to attend to the problem.)

The employers in this case having special tax treatment as not for profit corporations, also by law, must comply with laws it does not agree with, unfortunately for them. They will get over it eventually.

At least we have dispensed with the silliness that the provision of female reproductive coverage in a group health care plan paid for by the beneficiaries somehow violates the Board of Directors individual right to free exercise, which is ludicrous.

So now you are left with: "Get thee to a nunnery"

[19AL63]

I stated reasons I change work for and benefits was one of them. I state again I believe in freedom of choice in this country. No one is telling anyone where they have to work. If enough people will not work for the Catholics because of their health care then by their choice maybe they will change not by some Govt. rule.

[DGUtley]

Originally Posted by bethere

why would obama declare war on catholicism? he got the majority catholic vote both in 2008 and 2012. Don't confuse the civil war within the catholic faith between men and women, poor and rich, north and south, east and west, + conservative and liberal with anything having to do with Obama. that was there for generations before obama was born. NOW THE MEN IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID DECLARE WAR ON OBAMA. and they got their arses handed to them by their own nuns and 52% of their flock. i suspect that might have had something to do with today's abdication by the 'pope.'

Monday’s resignation of the Pope has nothing to do with what’s going on in the United States, nor does it have anything to do with any non-existent schism within the Church or its members. Regrettably, I believe that he recognized that there’s a tremendous amount of important work to do and his advancing age and medical conditions don’t permit him to carry out that work. It’s a tremendous recognition of his own mortality and his secondary nature to the work of the Church. I’ve always kind of looked at this Pope as kind of a “place sitter” between JP2 and the next charismatic Pope. It will be interesting.

I also disagree with the contention that the Men of the Church declared war on Obama. Quite the contrary, Catholics again voted for Obama because of his liberal positions. I used to chuckle when W stacked the Court with Catholics to try to get Roe v. Wade overturned. While the Catholics I know are overwhelmingly against abortion, we have a tendency to be social liberals. Hence, I’m not surprised that the Catholics (again) (men and women) voted for Obama. q

Originally Posted by wulffie

Tell it to the catholic women who want the therapies and services, not me.

This makes no sense. This is not about the Church denying any therapies and services to anybody. This is about the government forcing me to pay for therapies and services that I find morally objectionable, that have doctrinal prohibitions of my Church for decades.

Originally Posted by wulffie

You share in the costs of all the services offered but have no right to restrict others in what services they choose. Some others might object on their own moral grounds to a service or therapy YOU want and is covered. why should they be able to prevent you any more than you should be able to prevent THEM.

You are absolutely correct. The government has decreed that I have no right to refuse to pay for services that I find morally objectionable. You are free to have whatever services you want – hell, kill the babies up to the 8th grade in the privacy of your own home – but it is morally objectionable to me to pay for it. It is an infringement on this business owner’s exercise of his religion.

Originally Posted by wulffie

It is no violation of anybody's right to free exercise of religion as health care insurance plans have nothing to do with a person exercising his right to decline any service offere

Originally Posted by wulffie

d by the health care plan, which any person may do.

Excuse me, please. it is a violation of the right of the free exercise of religion for the Government to force the Catholic employers to violate their own consciences by making them provide, pay for, and/or facilitate those services to others, contrary to their sincerely held religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by wulffie

It is equally valid to argue that You and yours are the ones trying to violate other people's right to ignore the dogma of the Catholic Church.

No because I’m not asking someone else to pay for the exercise of my right as a Catholic. I have a monster problem with the notion that free contraception is a “right” but now you want me to pay for it?

Originally Posted by wulffie

HAHahaa written as the people of Germany and Europe including the Roman Catholic Church stood by and protested nothing as the Third Reich swept up jews, communists, homosexuals, gypsies and "intellectuals" and shipped them to concentration camps.

While it (any everybody else) didn’t do enough, the Catholic Church did much to help the Jews in Europe. “Prominent Jewish and Israeli leaders like Albert Einstein, Golda Meir and Joseph Lichten, as well as the Italian Jewish community, praised Pius after the war. “ Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/stop-persecuting-pius-wwii-pontiff-branded-hitler-pope-save-jews-article-1.409583#ixzz2KghBeLbK

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/controversies/pope-pius-xii-and-the-holocaust/

Originally Posted by wulffie

First they came... I think you are getting a little melodramatic here, Counselor. Nobody is coming to load Catholics into cattle cars and ship them off to concentration camps.

No, nobody is loading Catholics into cattle cars; but the government is trampling the rights of Catholics and their Church. You folks don’t care b/c you aren’t Catholic. If the government can force Catholics to pay for abortitants, what can’t it force people of conscience to abandon?

[wulffie]

Originally Posted by DGUtley

Monday’s resignation of the Pope has nothing to do with what’s going on in the United States, nor does it have anything to do with any non-existent schism within the Church or its members. Regrettably, I believe that he recognized that there’s a tremendous amount of important work to do and his advancing age and medical conditions don’t permit him to carry out that work. It’s a tremendous recognition of his own mortality and his secondary nature to the work of the Church. I’ve always kind of looked at this Pope as kind of a “place sitter” between JP2 and the next charismatic Pope. It will be interesting.

I also disagree with the contention that the Men of the Church declared war on Obama. Quite the contrary, Catholics again voted for Obama because of his liberal positions. I used to chuckle when W stacked the Court with Catholics to try to get Roe v. Wade overturned. While the Catholics I know are overwhelmingly against abortion, we have a tendency to be social liberals. Hence, I’m not surprised that the Catholics (again) (men and women) voted for Obama.


This makes no sense. This is not about the Church denying any therapies and services to anybody. This is about the government forcing me to pay for therapies and services that I find morally objectionable, that have doctrinal prohibitions of my Church for decades.

You are absolutely correct. The government has decreed that I have no right to refuse to pay for services that I find morally objectionable. You are free to have whatever services you want – hell, kill the babies up to the 8th grade in the privacy of your own home – but it is morally objectionable to me to pay for it. It is an infringement on this business owner’s exercise of his religion.
[color=black]
Excuse me, please. it is a violation of the right of the free exercise of religion for the Government to force the Catholic employers to violate their own consciences by making them provide, pay for, and/or facilitate those services to others, contrary to their sincerely held religious beliefs.

No because I’m not asking someone else to pay for the exercise of my right as a Catholic. I have a monster problem with the notion that free contraception is a “right” but now you want me to pay for it?


While it (any everybody else) didn’t do enough, the Catholic Church did much to help the Jews in Europe. “Prominent Jewish and Israeli leaders like Albert Einstein, Golda Meir and Joseph Lichten, as well as the Italian Jewish community, praised Pius after the war. “ Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/stop-persecuting-pius-wwii-pontiff-branded-hitler-pope-save-jews-article-1.409583#ixzz2KghBeLbK

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/controversies/pope-pius-xii-and-the-holocaust/


No, nobody is loading Catholics into cattle cars; but the government is trampling the rights of Catholics and their Church. You folks don’t care b/c you aren’t Catholic. If the government can force Catholics to pay for abortitants, what can’t it force people of conscience to abandon?

Poppycock. Nobody forces anyone to use birth control. The Pope doesn't know anything about the subject and should keep his trap shut about women's reproductive health issues.

[DGUtley]

Originally Posted by wulffie

Poppycock. Nobody forces anyone to use birth control. The Pope doesn't know anything about the subject and should keep his trap shut about women's reproductive health issues.

Poppycock? You win.

[jimmacqueen]

Originally Posted by fbbfan

Do we still have freedom of choice? I question that when you have people in power telling banks to stop lending money to gun makers till they support the new gun bans being proposed by Obama’s administration.

For the question being asked in this thread, the fact is most democrats wants God and religion out of government. If you watched the democratic convention that was pretty clear. Let’s pray that never happens!!!!

It would be best to get ALL forms of religions out of government, and that's what the founding fathers had in mind. Religion is very divisive and anti-social. It pretends to want to do good, but is in fact designed by politicians to help control the masses. Further, it sets up "my way or the highway" dogmas that result in anti-social policies; in extreme cases, purges and wars between various sects or religions.

Individual, personal, beliefs are fine, and do no damage. But when organized into groups, religions evolve into the root of much evil.

[jimmacqueen]

Originally Posted by DGUtley

When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing. What did I care? I wasn't Catholic. When they came for the . . . .

Actually, from MY point of view, we are attempting to PROTECT Catholics from the tyranny of their church leaders.

[QuakerOats]

Originally Posted by DGUtley

When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing. What did I care? I wasn't Catholic. When they came for the . . . .

Amen, bro!


They best not come knocking on my door.

[wisdome]

Originally Posted by wulffie

Poppycock. Nobody forces anyone to use birth control. The Pope doesn't know anything about the subject and should keep his trap shut about women's reproductive health issues.

So why should I pay for somebody else to use it. Nobody is forced to use BC, but we are told that we must pay for it so somebody else that is not forced to use it...can use it!

[DGUtley]

Originally Posted by jimmacqueen

Actually, from MY point of view, we are attempting to PROTECT Catholics from the tyranny of their church leaders.

In the words of that great JJH poster: poppycock.

[fbbfan]

Originally Posted by jimmacqueen

It would be best to get ALL forms of religions out of government, and that's what the founding fathers had in mind. Religion is very divisive and anti-social. It pretends to want to do good, but is in fact designed by politicians to help control the masses. Further, it sets up "my way or the highway" dogmas that result in anti-social policies; in extreme cases, purges and wars between various sects or religions.

Individual, personal, beliefs are fine, and do no damage. But when organized into groups, religions evolve into the root of much evil.

It would be best to get ALL forms of beliefs and views into government not out!! The more divers the government the safer we the people are. Any organized groups that gain too much power and control evolve into the root of much evil by definition. Because no one group can have everyone’s best interest at heart. Just like I believe the farther we get away from God as a country the more evil takes control. You believe the opposite why I disagree you have a right to live your life as you wish as I do.

[wulffie]

Originally Posted by wisdome

So why should I pay for somebody else to use it. Nobody is forced to use BC, but we are told that we must pay for it so somebody else that is not forced to use it...can use it!

because they WANT to use it.

You cannot find a way to convince them not to, and so want to deny them the choice.

Dominate your women, catholics. they like being told their opinions do not mean a thing to the High Priests.

Its the 50 Shades of Gray thing.

MAKE your women have sex with you and no birth control.

MAKE them have more babies and quit their jobs, or neglect the babies.

The Pope says he needs to know those tithes are in the pipeline.