[conkfl]

I think it is so sad that the present Penn State Students will have to pay the price for the past acts of those who are now removed from the University.

Doesn't seem fair!

They should be offered "free tuition", or something, any suggestions?

[bird]

There just seems to be something wrong with the NCAA applying these penalties to demonstrate that "winning isn't everything"...when the main results of the penalties is that it will make it harder for Penn State to win. Doesn't that actually accentuate the importance of winning?

If you want to beat the football program down and make an example of it, then great. But for all the talk that "the culture" is the problem, I think the NCAA's penalties do nothing about the culture. Does anyone really think that winning or losing will be less important at Penn State or anywhere else now?

Me neither.

And there also seems to be something a little wrong with the NCAA telling us that players shouldn't be paid because universities need that money to administer education...and then taking $60 million away from Penn State so they have less funds for education.

[14Red]

Spanking a kids butt has nothing to do with stopping the behavior that got them the spanking, but the spanking is a reminder to not do that again.

I'm on the fence of weather players should get paid, but there are many schools who could never afford to pay it athletes. And who do you pay? Just the football players? I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen. Many schools not named OHio State and Penn STate lose money in athletics. What do you do with them?

[bird]

Originally Posted by 14Red

Spanking a kids butt has nothing to do with stopping the behavior that got them the spanking, but the spanking is a reminder to not do that again.

I agree, but the punitive "spanking" needs to be administered by the legal system, and it will be.

The NCAA's penalties are completely off base. They do nothing to penalize the actual people who committed any crimes, and they will not affect any sort of cultural change.

There will be people in jail, the university is likely to be liable for millions of dollars, and Paterno's legacy is in tatters. This is going to be the outcome of the legal case against the perpetrators and the university.

Then the NCAA comes in and says "On top of that, we're going to make it harder for you to win football games"? Why? Because no NCAA rules or regulations were broken? Because Emmert is on a power trip? Because football really is that important (as if a losing record for the next few years is an appropriate penalty for enabling child molestors)?

A Penn State team is going to to take the field this fall. If they go 2-10, is that supposed to be some sort of warning to others to not allow child rapists to roam your campus?

[bird]

Originally Posted by conkfl

I think it is so sad that the present Penn State Students will have to pay the price for the past acts of those who are now removed from the University.

Doesn't seem fair!

They should be offered "free tuition", or something, any suggestions?

If you mean the players, they should be allowed to transfer without penalty.

If you mean the students, are you joking?

[jgord24]

Originally Posted by bird

The NCAA's penalties are complety off base. They do nothing to penalize the actual people who committed any crimes, and they will not affect any sort of cultural change.
?

Actually I think the penalties are spot on. The institution as a whole failed, not just the 4 stooges, the institutition as a whole deserves this punishment. You can't possible tell me that nobody else outside of the 4 stooges knew anything about this? If the school and the 4 clowns covered up this..........what else do you think they covered up? PSU negotiated this punishment, I think they wanted the NCAA off their back so they did not find anything more.

USC got punished for Reggie Bush who was out of school for 5 years.........the people punished at USC had nothing to do with that.

OSU got punished for Tressel and TP both who were no longer part of the program last year, and on top of that OSU gets a 1 year bowl ban this year.

[jgord24]

Originally Posted by conkfl

I think it is so sad that the present Penn State Students will have to pay the price for the past acts of those who are now removed from the University.

Doesn't seem fair!

They should be offered "free tuition", or something, any suggestions?

You mean the students who wanted to riot when Jo Pa was removed from head coach? Or the ones guarded the Jo Pa statute? Or the ones that no matter how much more info comes out proving Jo Pa a scumbag.......still think he is a saint? There is still a pretty decent amount of the student body there who just don't get...............and that is sad.

[14Red]

Originally Posted by jgord24

You mean the students who wanted to riot when Jo Pa was removed from head coach? Or the ones guarded the Jo Pa statute? Or the ones that no matter how much more info comes out proving Jo Pa a scumbag.......still think he is a saint? There is still a pretty decent amount of the student body there who just don't get...............and that is sad.

I certainly don't want to offend anyone under 25, but student bodies on high school and college campuses are about the worst people to make rational decisions. Think about it, how many of us older folks made stupid decisions when we were 15, 20, 25 years old? You see the world alot differently after you start a family, work in the real world for 10 plus year, pay taxes and see how people are. These kids at Penn State have no idea, they are just following some radical leaders and have not looked at the mounting evidence.

[merklaw]

Never forget that the morning after the AD Curley talked to Mr. Paterno, it was decided that it was "more humane" for the Fab Four NOT to call any authorities, after it was originally decided to at least call Dept of Welfare (in response to what McQueary saw). When leaders are this poor, many "innocents" suffer, whether in private industry (Enron) or public sector (Penn State). Statue had to go. The institution had to pay, even if I'm no fan of the NCAA. The penalty was so much worse than OSU/USC because the acts/failures to act were so much worse, and led to other kids being victimized. Horrible.

[bird]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. No doubt the crimes/acts were horrible, much worse than tattoos or shoplifting. But to me the NCAA overstepped its bounds in many ways, and its penalties have actually reinforced the "win at all costs" culture that they are supposedly trying to change.

[jgord24]

I don't see how this reinforces win at all costs? I think it does the exact opposite.

[bird]

Originally Posted by jgord24

I don't see how this reinforces win at all costs? I think it does the exact opposite.

The NCAA has decided that the most important way the school can be punished is by making it harder to win football games. As opposed to any sort of a focus on culture change.

The NCAA's actions have also now set up what will probably be a decade-long narrative of "Can the Penn State football program rebound?"

The story is now going to be even more around football.

I find Sandusky's actions and the senior leadership's enabling to be as heinous as anyone. Yet I do not find the NCAA's penalties to be appropriate. Let alone the fact that they are based on the school's actions in a legal sense, but only Sandusky has even had a trial.

Here are a few opinions that I in large part agreed with. Punishing those who were not guilty is not a huge concern; any penalty assessed would do that and has at other universities as well. But the other points are fair.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ert/index.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...caa/index.html

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-foo...&sct=hp_t2_a15

[Ramoth]

It is not the job of the ncaa to enact culture change at any given university.
The regulator drops their hammer and to avoid further punishment in the future the university has to make changes themselves, same as anywhere else.

The "4 stooges" could not have successfully kept this secret without an established environment that placed football above all else at PSU.
A culture existed that allowed this to go on for a decade.
That culture is probably worse now, nobody will want to be the person who came forward with something that makes things worse.

PSU has to institute programs to change the culture that allowed their situation to exist for a decade. There will never be a child molester hidden at PSU again because that is a sensitive issue now.
How about a steroid ring? Drug-dealer? Prostitution? Dog-fighting?

If the culture allowed a child-molester to be hidden it's hard to think of something the culture would NOT have covered to protect the almighty football program.
That culture still exists.
Dismissing a few leaders and levying some penalties doesn't change culture.

It doesn't matter what the ncaa does they can not change the culture at the university.
Only PSU can do that.
They need to send a strong message to EVERY person in the organization that football can never be placed above all else ever again.
Effecting EVERY person there is the only way to ensure that you will get at least one to come forward when something is wrong.
EVERY student current and future has to be required to take classes(at the expense of the university) that outline what happened, the root cause that allowed it and what changes will be made going forward.
EVERY employee current and future, regardless of their job duties needs to be required to attend this same classroom training.
Whatever the disciplinary process is at PSU needs to be promptly implemented on any employee who hints at resisting this change.
The next person who comes forward with something that is potentially embarrassing to the football program needs to be publicly rewarded for doing so by the university.

There is nothing inherently wrong with football being high on the priority list at a given university.
Elevating football above all else was the root cause of this situation.
The ncaa didn't make that happen and they can't make it go away........the PSU culture and future are in PSU's hands not the ncaa.

As we have watched these events unfold it should have become obvious that PSU is not going to do anything to enact change without the prospect of severe future penalties hanging over their head.
I do not think the ncaa went overboard with their punishment.
Let's hope a clear message has been sent to PSU and every other university that says the next university caught covering something atrocious to protect their football program will get to see the ncaa crush their program .

[bird]

Originally Posted by Ramoth

It is not the job of the ncaa to enact culture change at any given university..

I agree with that. But do you think that Mark Emmert agrees with that, given his comments when announcing the penalties?

Originally Posted by Ramoth

PSU has to institute programs to change the culture that allowed their situation to exist for a decade. There will never be a child molester hidden at PSU again because that is a sensitive issue now.
How about a steroid ring? Drug-dealer? Prostitution? Dog-fighting?

Agreed...so why have the NCAA take $60M from Penn State that could have been used to fund these programs?

Originally Posted by Ramoth

It doesn't matter what the ncaa does they can not change the culture at the university.
Only PSU can do that.

Again, agreed. And thanks to the tin star sheriffs at the NCAA, Penn State has $60M less with which they can do this.

Originally Posted by Ramoth

They need to send a strong message to EVERY person in the organization that football can never be placed above all else ever again.
Effecting EVERY person there is the only way to ensure that you will get at least one to come forward when something is wrong.
EVERY student current and future has to be required to take classes(at the expense of the university) that outline what happened, the root cause that allowed it and what changes will be made going forward.
EVERY employee current and future, regardless of their job duties needs to be required to attend this same classroom training.
Whatever the disciplinary process is at PSU needs to be promptly implemented on any employee who hints at resisting this change.
The next person who comes forward with something that is potentially embarrassing to the football program needs to be publicly rewarded for doing so by the university.

Agreed. Oh, and in addition to that it's certainly a relief to know that it will now be harder for Penn State to win football games.

Originally Posted by Ramoth

As we have watched these events unfold it should have become obvious that PSU is not going to do anything to enact change without the prospect of severe future penalties hanging over their head.

The legal and reputational penalties should be more sufficient than not allowing Penn State to play in the Poulon Weed Eater Bowl.

Originally Posted by Ramoth

I do not think the ncaa went overboard with their punishment.

Their punishment is misguided.

Originally Posted by Ramoth

Let's hope a clear message has been sent to PSU and every other university that says the next university caught covering something atrocious to protect their football program will get to see the ncaa crush their program.

Well personally, I would think that jail time, lawsuits, national shame, and ruined lives would be more than enough to dissuade a repeat of this shameful story. But hey, if having your football team not allowed to be ranked for a few seasons is a strong deterrent, then good job NCAA.

[lmavcch3]

Guys, it's all about the money!!!!! It always is.

Think about the revenue lost by PSU, directly and indirectly.

This is the NCAA.

[Ramoth]

Bird;
Jail time, lawsuits and national shame DIRECTLY affect very few people.

Organizational culture change has to touch every person on campus DIRECTLY.

Since an environment that placed football above all else was the root cause of this situation then seeing that program ruined will indeed be pretty much the strongest deterrent.

If a ruined football program is what it takes for PSU management to make a real commitment to driving out that culture then by all means....... fair and unfair........ crush that program.
Is there someone other than the ncaa that can do that?

It's not about wins and losses anyway it's about culture.
PSU football has had their down years, the culture surrounding football at PSU did not go away during that time...........sub-500 or not Sandusky was taking victims and PSU was keeping it quiet.
It's not about men like Sandusky either...............going forward any university in the country will expose and dismiss sexual predators upon discovery.

It's about making sure an environment that tolerates such a situation does not exist.
Once such an environment does exist it will not leave the affected organization painlessly.
The organizational leadership has to implement costly changes to drive it out.
If the events leading to this punishment from the ncaa weren't enough to convince you that PSU would never even try to change the culture without first being severely punished by the regulator then nothing will.

[bird]

Originally Posted by Ramoth

Bird;
Jail time, lawsuits and national shame DIRECTLY affect very few people.

Organizational culture change has to touch every person on campus DIRECTLY.

But it is these few people who set the culture at Penn State, along with fans who overemphasize football.

Please list for me the occasions for which NCAA sanctions have served to make football less important.

Originally Posted by Ramoth

Since an environment that placed football above all else was the root cause of this situation then seeing that program ruined will indeed be pretty much the strongest deterrent.

If a ruined football program is what it takes for PSU management to make a real commitment to driving out that culture then by all means....... fair and unfair........ crush that program.
Is there someone other than the ncaa that can do that?

Of course. The university could. But I do not believe this program will be crushed.

Originally Posted by Ramoth

It's not about wins and losses anyway it's about culture.
PSU football has had their down years, the culture surrounding football at PSU did not go away during that time...........sub-500 or not Sandusky was taking victims and PSU was keeping it quiet.

Why do you think that down years now (because of NCAA sanctions) will change the culture surrounding football when it didn't before?

Originally Posted by Ramoth

It's not about men like Sandusky either...............going forward any university in the country will expose and dismiss sexual predators upon discovery.

If the exposure of sexual predators is going to be happening because of the threat of NCAA sanctions, then I think you mean any athletic department is going to be exposing sexual predators. Because apparently the legal issues aren't enough? Again, it's really hard for me to believe that losing scholarships will be more of an incentive than the legal penalties Penn State is facing. Moral obligation, retaining my job, and avoiding prosecution wouldn't be enough to make me report this type of activity...but my team missing out on the Music City Bowl would?

Originally Posted by Ramoth

It's about making sure an environment that tolerates such a situation does not exist.
Once such an environment does exist it will not leave the affected organization painlessly.
The organizational leadership has to implement costly changes to drive it out.
If the events leading to this punishment from the ncaa weren't enough to convince you that PSU would never even try to change the culture without first being severely punished by the regulator then nothing will.

Although they've inserted themselves into an ongoing legal case, the NCAA is not the regulator here. If they are, then the fault of Penn State also lies in not reporting Sandusky to the NCAA in addition to law enforcement. And I do not believe the NCAA's penalties will be the driving force for any culture change. That's not to say that there won't be or can't be culture change though.

[Ramoth]

In the current culture the football team missing out on the Music City Bowl was enough incentive for them hide and enable a sexual predator.
An improved culture would have prevented that and will prevent it in the future.

Legal action only affects a few people..........the people they can PROVE had knowledge. 99% of the people there had no reason to worry about proof leading to their doorstep.
Law enforcement does nothing for change. They show up AFTER the fact conduct investigations and make arrests if possible.

Down years now are different because the ncaa sanctions have brought about the very real possibility that the down period will go from years to decades.
Down years before were due to a few recruiting classes that didn't work out.
That problem is a little different and less painful to address. The same possibility for a long down period existed then but they had some control over the situation.
They still have some control but are at an obvious disadvantage that they will have to deal with for a few years...........................maybe long enough for a culture change to take place.


I'm sure things were and are different at SMU once they got football back but I don't think a total shutdown of football for any period is the answer at PSU.
If they lose football for a short period they will be even more protective when they get it back.
On the flip side if the program is bad for a long enough period of time that's a different situation and the culture surrounding it may die on its own anyway.
Sooner or later people will stop caring about whether or not they embarrass a bad program and I'm sure the ncaa had those things in mind when deciding what to do with this situation.

It's a slippery slope, any punishment has the potential to make the football above all else culture worse but the university cannot be allowed to go on as if nothing happened(which is clearly what they want to do).

There is no perfect template for change but doing nothing is a proven perfect strategy for changing nothing.

[bird]

Well this is a unique situation and we're all guessing at what the implications will be.

Everybody wants things to change at Penn State (and for college athletics as a whole) but there is no proven model to do that.

"Changing the culture" is a nebulous statement and it's hard to know if you've achieved it, because goals are so hard to set. Anyone who has worked for a company with a lousy culture knows that identifying the problems is the easy part, but effectively addressing them is much harder.

We'll see what happens. Obviously, I am personally very pessimistic that the NCAA's penalties really address any of the issues that contributed to this episode, and may in fact be an obstacle to the goals that everyone is talking about. Others disagree. It's pretty much anyone's guess though; there is no evidence to prove or disprove anyone's theories (SMU is not Penn State, either the actions, the internal culture at the school, or the external culture among the fans).

[Ramoth]

The external culture among the fans is irrelevant.
It was the internal culture that allowed this to happen.

I am not willing to discuss details on an open forum but I have been through a site wide culture change at my current employer a decade ago. I've seen what it takes, been part of it and a decade later I can confidently say it was and is very, very effective.