[19AL63]

www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/reese.asp.



This is not a new article, but should be read by everyone that votes or plans to vote in Nov. The author says 545 people are to blame for our Govt Problems, but we the voters are really to blame . We vote these people into office and then continue to vote them in as they sell us down the river.

[sleeper]

The American people are responsible. Obama is the worst choice in the history of America and I'm hoping the same mistake isn't made again.

[DGUtley]

Yes, we are our own worst enemies. We let this happen and we're continuing the ruse -- we can have everything we want without having to pay for it. Balanced Budget Amendment, now.

[19AL63]

I have always thought I had common sense. and now so many people seem to think differently than I do, can it be that I am that out of touch with reality or is this land of ours just going down the tube?

[NapRover]

This land is definitely going down the tubes. We want to be like Europe, where secular humanism, tolerance for hedonism and sloth is the fad. Intolerance for common sense and morality is the new bedrock of civilization. Having only one life to live, they demand government care from cradle to grave and elect those who exploit that sentiment.

History is revised to delete the Judeo-Christian foundation that supported the U.S.A. Relentless attacks on Christian values by the ACLU and left-wing nut jobs undermine and erode our foundation.

Some predict catastrophic depression in the coming years due to abandoning the principles that got us here and made us the greatest country ever known. Time will surely tell.
http://www.newsmaxworld.com/the_amer...03/460068.html

[DGUtley]

Can we stop it? Can we fix it?

[19AL63]

First the adults of the 313 million people in this country must come to the realization there is a problem. So many people I talk to do not seem to think there is a major situation unfolding. They seem to think given time all the problems will just go away or be corrected with no pain just gain. I really feel that when the national debt comes back and bites us and it is to late, people will then wake up and wonder what happened.

[NapRover]

Miracles happen. And it will take one or more to fix things. Rudderless America is starved for leaders that can pull together and work both sides in a spirit of compromise.

Many apparently subscribe to the notion that we all have the right to lives without struggle or hardship. Like addicts, sometimes we have to hit bottom before we realize that changes are imperative. We're heading there.

As far as morality, maybe another world war, pandemic or other calamitous event will shake us to our senses. But if our kids aren't being taught the fundamentals, it is hard to envision or even hope that they pass it on.

[bigdogg]

Originally Posted by sleeper

The American people are responsible. Obama is the worst choice in the history of America and I'm hoping the same mistake isn't made again.

As bad has he has been, still not as bad as Bush. I for one do not want to go back to the party that got us here and is doing everything in their power to keep us where we are at.

[DGUtley]

BigDogg -- I have my own disagreements with what Bush did in terms of deficit spending and two wars without making arrangements to pay for same. Perhaps those are your issues as well. I am curious, however, what you are referencing. If you go on the government's own websites, we see that BEFORE THE MORTGAGE FUELED ECONOMIC COLLAPSE, his revenue and unemployment numbers were quite satisfactory. We also know that Bush tried to stop the mortgage hey-day, but some on the D side of the aisle called him racist. So, you complain about the "party" but really it was the D's that had a huge hand in pushing us into the ditch. Again, not absolving Bush (deficit and unfunded wars / drug benefits) but I am curious about what factually you speak. Thank you so much.

[wisdome]

Originally Posted by bigdogg

As bad has he has been, still not as bad as Bush. I for one do not want to go back to the party that got us here and is doing everything in their power to keep us where we are at.

Bush ended on a bad note and that is on him. Now the Prez got that bad note and has not made it better and even worse. That is on him.

Our country needs to take responsibility for its actions and more so for its mistakes. We the voters are the responsible ones for allowing them into office.

[bigdogg]

Originally Posted by DGUtley

BigDogg -- I have my own disagreements with what Bush did in terms of deficit spending and two wars without making arrangements to pay for same. Perhaps those are your issues as well. I am curious, however, what you are referencing. If you go on the government's own websites, we see that BEFORE THE MORTGAGE FUELED ECONOMIC COLLAPSE, his revenue and unemployment numbers were quite satisfactory. We also know that Bush tried to stop the mortgage hey-day, but some on the D side of the aisle called him racist. So, you complain about the "party" but really it was the D's that had a huge hand in pushing us into the ditch. Again, not absolving Bush (deficit and unfunded wars / drug benefits) but I am curious about what factually you speak. Thank you so much.

First off I and many experts disagree with your premise that the economic collapse was due to the mortgage fraud that was committed by the big banks. It was much more complicated than that and had as much to do with Congress deregulating Wall Street and the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

I supported Bush attacking Iraq because I figured he had information I did not. Clearly, this was a colossal mistake of historic proportions. For those decisions, I voted for change across the board. What we got now is gridlock and the most divided nation in my 51 years of life.

Until both party's turn to the center I fear we are doomed whoever gets elected. I will do my best to keep the crazy's out of office on both sides at all levels of government.

[NapRover]

Readers: President Clinton repealed the (antiquated) Glass-Steagall in 1999.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

[DGUtley]

Originally Posted by bigdogg

First off I and many experts disagree with your premise that the economic collapse was due to the mortgage fraud that was committed by the big banks. It was much more complicated than that and had as much to do with Congress deregulating Wall Street and the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

Well, I appreciate your input, and I am far from an expert on these issues whatsoever. I am not aware of any mortgage fraud that was committed by the big banks - i've tracked it and I haven't seen BHO send anybody to prison. I am aware of a ton of bad mortgage decisions that were committed by customers and banks. In fact, i think of the Community Reinvestment Act that forced banks to loan money to people that couldn't afford those loans -- i know b/c i defended two banks that were sued by the federal goverment for having too strict underwriting guidelines. Yes, too strict underwriting guidelines that the feds claimed were racial. To me, and again i'm not an expert by any stretch, that's the root (or start) of this problem and that's squarely on the D's - first JCarter and then BClinton. When Bush tried to rein it in, he was called racist. Then greed and dishonety took over (liar loans etc. ) until the refinance collapse forced the collapse of the values of the mortgages - nearly collapsing the entire system. I could be wrong, but that's my sophomoric analysis.

I supported Bush attacking Iraq because I figured he had information I did not. Clearly, this was a colossal mistake of historic proportions.

As was everybody else, all those D's that had for years chriped about WMD's - except me and BHO. I was against going to war with Iraq, i couldn't understand the rush - we had him penned in. Why rush it?

For those decisions, I voted for change across the board. What we got now is gridlock and the most divided nation in my 51 years of life.

I get it, as did many others. I can't, however, vote for someone that philosophy doesn't even remotely resemble my views.

Until both party's turn to the center I fear we are doomed whoever gets elected. I will do my best to keep the crazy's out of office on both sides at all levels of government.

Agree, that's why BHO and his gang have got to go. His programs are bad for this country. I still think he'll win, but i'm becoming cautiously optimistic.

[o.a.b.]

Originally Posted by bigdogg

First off I and many experts disagree with your premise that the economic collapse was due to the mortgage fraud that was committed by the big banks. It was much more complicated than that and had as much to do with Congress deregulating Wall Street and the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

I supported Bush attacking Iraq because I figured he had information I did not. Clearly, this was a colossal mistake of historic proportions. For those decisions, I voted for change across the board. What we got now is gridlock and the most divided nation in my 51 years of life.

Until both party's turn to the center I fear we are doomed whoever gets elected. I will do my best to keep the crazy's out of office on both sides at all levels of government.

...and let's not also forget about NEWT'S NAFTA.It was sold to Americans hook,line,and sinker.The goal : Definitely NOT to create American jobs ! More were destroyed,sent to China and Mexico.China has used OUR wages to triple its military might,Mexico to build its drug cartel.Yes,Clinton signed it but it IS the Republicans that wrote it,it is the Republicans that provided the impetus for its passage.It destroyed careers,pensions while economically rewarding those taking jobs out.NOW,Republicans are " bringing those jobs back"--what a joke and one that working America saw through from the very beginning.Waving the flag versus living the dream is something R's talk about but can't demonstrate without alterior motives at others expense.The "center" that the R's talk about : Soft money is okay--Bigger tax breaks for the whining rich while they STILL aren't creating jobs but insist a politician is at fault [ WHEN WILL the conditions be right ? ]--Their leadership [ what a loose term ] still sends the message of big government being the problem YET insist on reneging on defense budget cuts that they DID agree to ,they still think their porngraphic wages/benefits are okay and are a small problem versus food stamps.....in closing,I can't think of many times that it is proper to shoot the messenger except when liars insist on shoving one up my arse time after time.If the Republicans were legitimate,this race would not be close but the unparrelleled damage they've done to the average working American has a 35 year history behind it.If there IS middle ground,they ought to be ASKING, not dictating.

[o.a.b.]

Back to a standard backing the almighty buck and let's eliminate the promissory note.The rest is just a game that both parties capitalize on and why we work for government instead of government working for us.It's no accident the first stimulus went to the banks.IF THEY FAILED,THE POLITICIANS,not Americans stood to lose.Thanks,GWB

[wisdome]

Originally Posted by o.a.b.

...and let's not also forget about NEWT'S NAFTA.It was sold to Americans hook,line,and sinker.The goal : Definitely NOT to create American jobs ! More were destroyed,sent to China and Mexico.China has used OUR wages to triple its military might,Mexico to build its drug cartel.Yes,Clinton signed it but it IS the Republicans that wrote it,it is the Republicans that provided the impetus for its passage.It destroyed careers,pensions while economically rewarding those taking jobs out.NOW,Republicans are " bringing those jobs back"--what a joke and one that working America saw through from the very beginning.Waving the flag versus living the dream is something R's talk about but can't demonstrate without alterior motives at others expense.The "center" that the R's talk about : Soft money is okay--Bigger tax breaks for the whining rich while they STILL aren't creating jobs but insist a politician is at fault [ WHEN WILL the conditions be right ? ]--Their leadership [ what a loose term ] still sends the message of big government being the problem YET insist on reneging on defense budget cuts that they DID agree to ,they still think their porngraphic wages/benefits are okay and are a small problem versus food stamps.....in closing,I can't think of many times that it is proper to shoot the messenger except when liars insist on shoving one up my arse time after time.If the Republicans were legitimate,this race would not be close but the unparrelleled damage they've done to the average working American has a 35 year history behind it.If there IS middle ground,they ought to be ASKING, not dictating.

OAB...you say this so many times that I know you have blunged yourself to believe it...but this is the facts about NAFTA:

There were negotiations dating back to 1986 between the three nations leaders (Canada, Mexico and USA). They met in San Antonio, Texas, on 17 December 1992, and signed the NAFTA agreement. Now the agreement needed to be ratified by each country legislative or parliamentary branch and that is when Prez Clinton with a Demo Congress signed it in 1993.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT...Class dismissed. :-)

[docthehun]

Originally Posted by wisdome

OAB...you say this so many times that I know you have blunged yourself to believe it...but this is the facts about NAFTA:

There were negotiations dating back to 1986 between the three nations leaders (Canada, Mexico and USA). They met in San Antonio, Texas, on 17 December 1992, and signed the NAFTA agreement. Now the agreement needed to be ratified by each country legislative or parliamentary branch and that is when Prez Clinton with a Demo Congress signed it in 1993.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT...Class dismissed. :-)

Well said Wisdom! Apparently our friend missed the following story.



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/100-00...154000356.html

[DGUtley]

I don't know quite where to begin, there's so much to say and so little time to say it:

Originally Posted by o.a.b.

...and let's not also forget about NEWT'S NAFTA.It was sold to Americans hook,line,and sinker. Yes,Clinton signed it but it IS the Republicans that wrote it,it is the Republicans that provided the impetus for its passage.

Doggone those sneaky Republicans -- holding a gun to Clinton's head to force him to sign NAFTA. Wow, sneaky peaky.

It destroyed careers,pensions while economically rewarding those taking jobs out.NOW,Republicans are " bringing those jobs back"--what a joke and one that working America saw through from the very beginning.

Wait a cotton picking minute there, friend. It's the D's that love working America and it's the R's that hate working America. You mean to tell me that it was the D's that signed this boondoggle? Wow. Yet, you re-elected Clinton, didn't you? As for the impact of NAFTA -- one study found:
“[T]he evidence to date bears out most economists’ initial predictions: that for the U.S., the impact of NAFTA has been relatively small, and that for Mexico, changes in trade flows to date do not give much support to the view that NAFTA might be seriously trade diverting.” This was from the Journal of Economic Perspectives -- http://199.33.141.23/faculty/webpage...of%25nafta.pdf
In other words, negligible impact.

The Council on Foreign Relations makes similar findings and even says that the job losses you are speaking about were caused by conditions long before nafta:
http://www.cfr.org/economics/naftas-...-impact/p15790
In other words, NAFTA had little, if anything, to do with the job losses in this country and even has lead to positive labor gains. Yes, i know, i know, you love to blame the R's for forcing Clinton to sign that doggone treaty -- but you're just plain wrong - at least from an empirical, analytical and scholarly standpoint. Emotionally? Go for it.

Waving the flag versus living the dream is something R's talk about but can't demonstrate without alterior motives at others expense. The "center" that the R's talk about : Soft money is okay--Bigger tax breaks for the whining rich while they STILL aren't creating jobs but insist a politician is at fault [ WHEN WILL the conditions be right ? ]--Their leadership [ what a loose term ] still sends the message of big government being the problem YET insist on reneging on defense budget cuts that they DID agree to ,they still think their porngraphic wages/benefits are okay and are a small problem versus food stamps.....in closing,I can't think of many times that it is proper to shoot the messenger except when liars insist on shoving one up my arse time after time.If the Republicans were legitimate,this race would not be close but the unparrelleled damage they've done to the average working American has a 35 year history behind it.If there IS middle ground,they ought to be ASKING, not dictating.

Ok, I got tired and busy. i can't respond to this in detail - other than to ask: What? Really? What?

[BGFalcons82]

Originally Posted by bigdogg

Until both party's turn to the center I fear we are doomed whoever gets elected. I will do my best to keep the crazy's out of office on both sides at all levels of government.

Can you, or anyone else, name a great leader that was a moderate centrist? Name some world leader whom was well known as a great compromisor, someone who struggled with rigid core beliefs, someone who could change their mind regardless of their constituents and their ardent followers.

Name them.