[KingofScotland]

I know it comes up in conversations/debates involving the competitive balance proposal, but I wanted to get some more feedback and opinions about Open enrollment vs feeder programs.

For example, who has a greater advantage...A high school district (like Columbus) that includes 16 teams, but each school can draw players from all across the city district. This allows for multiple players to "choose" to play together at any school in the district.

or

A Smaller District (Like say Gahanna) that includes 1 high school team, but is the only option for most residents in the district. It is predetermined that a player will end up at a certain school. This allows for continuity (of systems) as well as solid foundations taught in feeder schools.


Which do you think is the greater benefit to a High School Program?

[offpar11]

My vote would go for open enrollment. every now and again a feeder system may not produce talent. from what i observe, especially in columbus, the kids on the move have talent and decide to go and play with other programs that have talent. great debate question though. i will follow this one.

[alwayslearning]

Hey Scottie (in my phil jackson voice) Reynoldsburg has open enrollment meaning kids from the city can go there. At least they are not sneaking like the rest of the suburbs, they just came out and said they are doing it. Plus they have feeder schools. In the city, Africentric and Eastmoor Academy are lottery schools. Africentric is k-12th so that is that. Eastmoor Academy's has a feeder school. I guess you can say they benefit from both, but it is hard to get in. I don't think it is feeder vs open enrollment. Most schools have the luxury of both. Suburbs, catholic schools do have city kids. IMO, I want it all, give me the facilities, kids with good grades and who works hard with open enrollment and feeder schools. You can have all the drama with the schools with no facilities and a not so positive environment.

[TDave]

It would be an ideal situation if a school had the advantages of both.......however, a feeder system may be the slower route to becoming a basketball power........open enrollment can result in a quicker transition from bad to good just on the basis of a player or two. A feeder system may take a couple of years to produce good results.

[Jerving]

Sounds like Reynoldsburg has the best of both worlds. Feeder system and the ability to get kids from anywhere with the open enrollement. They also now have two high school campuses that combine for one team.

= Advantage Reynoldsburg.

[hawkeyz]

I am assuming that "feeder" means having a consistent teaching of how to play basketball from the younger grades on up. If so, that has nothing to do with the competitive balance problem. That's just some districts getting organized and working hard to provide skilled players to the top of their programs. Nothing shady or correctable there - although the OHSAA has seen it's role as needing to try to correct wealth, success, and hard work inequities with it's own particular flavor of social engineering.

What you are calling "open enrollment" could mean kids being able to choose a school outside of their normal boundary, and it could reflect a group of transfers going to a particular school with the intent of accruing an unusual collection of talent in one place. The latter is a concerted contrivance, and is at the core of the competitive balance problem imo.

When a group of very talented kids from different places decide to play together in one place, no matter whether the kids contrived the situation themselves, or whether adults helped them, the deck gets stacked. They still have to work hard and get coached right, but talent is the one thing that you can't necessarily get from hard work or coaching. So, it is this that is the greatest advantage. All one has to do is consider whether a bunch of smaller, slower kids with solid skills are likely to beat a bunch of bigger, faster kids with high abilities. The exception is that every now and then the first group will prevail, but we all understand that the rule is that the second group will come out on top.

In DI or II, schools of that size should be able to find 15 talented kids within their boundaries to play varsity basketball. Still, teams are definitely stacked on that level, especially when the top AAU teams have teammates who decide to play at the same school, but usually the advantage is weakened by the fact that large schools will have a reasonable talent pool to draw from and be competitive. But in DIII, and especially DIV, state champions can be contrived from even 1 or 2 very high profile talented kids who decide to transfer. As long as they aren't recruited, and they transfer by the rules, the cheating accusation shouldn't be made, but still, any thinking person has to recognize that those kinds of transfers skew the competitive balance.

And yes, I apply this to my beloved Hiland Hawks and their recent history. For me, this isn't about specific schools or situations, but more what reduces the skew in competitive balance in tournament/playoff sports.

[3dognites]

The open enrollment rules at Reynoldsburg clearly point out that any athlete enrolling from a neighboring district still must go through the same approval system as anyone else with the OHSAA (i.e., there must be a reason for the enrollment that is not sport-related), or sit out for a year. The school board chose to go to open enrollment to avoid another levy for tax-payers, as they are paid by the state for each out-of-district student that they educate. It was badly needed money. As for the two campuses, there wasn't room at the old school for everyone, and they now have 4 academic academies (based on the student's field of study), and two are at each school. So neither the two campuses or the open enrollment decision had ANYTHING to do with athletics other than saving money by not requring two football stadiums, 2 gymnasiums, 2 complete sets of coaches, etc.

[mtku]

Advantage Feeder System all the way. Most evident in football, but if a community is committed to basketball they can also do serious damage. Unless the table is balanced thru having to play teams with open enrollment systems. This is no debate, if you have a feeder system and compete against communities that don't guess who wins? So the only thing you can do is complain about open enrollment and thats because it balances the table. People should be embarrassed about the way they look at things, they want to win at all cost so they "rig" things to be successful. Another advantage of a feeder system is kids develop chemistry of playing together for years versus kids who are just getting to know each other. Think about it, kids coming up thru a middle school feeder system may have played 50 school games together before getting to High School (or more)
versus "Open enrollment guys" who are just coming together. C'mon Man!

[hawkeyz]

Originally Posted by mtku

Advantage Feeder System all the way. Most evident in football, but if a community is committed to basketball they can also do serious damage. Unless the table is balanced thru having to play teams with open enrollment systems. This is no debate, if you have a feeder system and compete against communities that don't guess who wins? So the only thing you can do is complain about open enrollment and thats because it balances the table. People should be embarrassed about the way they look at things, they want to win at all cost so they "rig" things to be successful. Another advantage of a feeder system is kids develop chemistry of playing together for years versus kids who are just getting to know each other. Think about it, kids coming up thru a middle school feeder system may have played 50 school games together before getting to High School (or more)
versus "Open enrollment guys" who are just coming together. C'mon Man!

That is a very well thought out and articulate presentation of the other side of the argument.

However, it is missing one key element: a convincing refutation of the argument that talent is usually the determining factor in sporting contests. Give me 5 high level AAU kids who don't know each other, put them on the same team, and we'll play a bunch of shorter, slower, but still skilled kids who have played together since they were 5 years old. I think most people will take the talented, bigger, faster team - because that is what typically prevails. We love the exceptions, but the exceptions do not nullify the rule.

So, the ability to secure talent outside of one's normal boundaries is the factor that skews competitive balance more than any other factor.

Schools who get organized with their feeders and develop players are doing something that every one of the opponents can do = no advantage. Schools who get top players transfer into their programs - for whatever reason - do have a significant advantage - and that advantage, while not guaranteeing championships, increases the odds considerably.

[mtku]

There are a lot of ways of looking at it, you have good points also but in the long run it is hell beating a program that has legacy, history and chemistry. You inherit a lot of headaches with transfers, it can be unbelievable!! Parent problems, envy, you name it. Feeder programs are a blessing to any High School that works together towards the same end. Open enrollment only balances the table, my vote says feeders have the advantage. I have seen more talanted teams take it on the chin a thousand times by shorter, slower less athletic players. You've seen it too Bucko! That goes back to the feeder program, shared history and chemistry that comes with it.

[alwayslearning]

Well reynoldsburg is taking full advantage of the open enrollment! Just heard that the girls squad will be loaded with talent(talk about that in the girls top coaches) so I am sure the boys will be too. I would prefer both like reynoldsburg has it. Middle schools and open enrollment, state titles will flow in like crazy now. Football team is next to be on the rise!

[rmolin73]

In Toledo it doesn't matter kids bounce around to whatever team that they think will be good.

[3dognites]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Well reynoldsburg is taking full advantage of the open enrollment! Just heard that the girls squad will be loaded with talent(talk about that in the girls top coaches) so I am sure the boys will be too. I would prefer both like reynoldsburg has it. Middle schools and open enrollment, state titles will flow in like crazy now. Football team is next to be on the rise!

As I also discussed in the same girls thread, only two of tthe girls you mentioned have actually moved to Reynoldsburg, and neither of those were under the open enrollment program. If either of the other two rumors happen down the road, the same applies to them.

As for the term feeder system, I have been around a long time, and I've just heard that term in the last few years. As I understand it, it applies to a school system such as Columbus that has several high schools, and in such a case, particular mille/junior hish schools within the same district are each assigned as a feeder school into particular high schools, based on geographical locations, etc. Schools such as Reynoldsburg, Gahanna, etc. may have multiple junior highs, but they are all assigned to the same high school, which is the only one in the district.

Bottom line is that I have no idea as to Reynolsburg having "taken advantage" of open enrollment in any sport so far, and the open enrollment policy passed by the board clearly points out that if an athlete does enroll under the program, they must meet the OHSAA requirements (i.e. have a non-athletic reason for enrollment or sitting out a year).