[roger,roger]

I hurt some officials' feelings on the ref post saying that the change of officiating in the post season (and by change specifically the physicality that is allowed) is the only thing I don't like about tournament basketball. It is almost like there are two rule books. Officials went nuts on me saying there is NO difference at all. They kicked me off their playground. So, what is your take? Do you see a noticeable difference from the regular season to the post season?

[strykerblue]

That is funny that the refs got that defensive about the topic....I heard a longtime ref say they are told to let things go and let the kids decide the games...even so far as to wait to call a foul until you see if the bucket is made..if it is made then no call but if not call the foul...sounded crazy to me too...why not call it the same way all season..a foul is a foul, the kids will adjust to how the game is called

[hawkeyz]

Refs and hypersensitivity go hand in hand - except for the elite among them.

But I'll defend them in this case. During the regular season, you have a lot of bad or average refs doing games. The same applies in the sectional.

Once you get to district, you get a more refined and experienced group, and it gets more refined as you go into regional and state games. These guys/gals tend to allow more contact off and on the ball. They tend to call fouls only when the contact gives an advantage in terms of possession or, especially, when a shot is taken.

The truth is that fans want a foul called every time their player is touched or bumped, but the best refs are able to discern what contact results in a significant advantage and what contact does not. The refs that can discern the difference and blow the whistle in concert with the flow of the game - not cause the flow or interrupt it - are the best refs.

The one consistent thing between all the reffing from the regular season through the post-season, is that the people doing it are human and will give evidence of their humanity by being in error on occasion.

[ohiopup]

http://www.nmact.org/pages/basketbal...c/BB_Unit2.pdf


Officials hate it when they point out their short comings.

Point of emphasis for the last two years (at least) has been that front hand
checking by a defensive player is a foul, and the stripes just don't seem to
want to call it.

Point of emphasis …

Pre game warm-up

Taunting/self promotion

Handchecking / body fouls
(page 45 of the document)
… Regardless of where it takes place on the court,
When a player continuously places a hand on the ball
handler/dribbler, it is a foul.

Screening

Post Play

:>---

[roger,roger]

Originally Posted by hawkeyz

Refs and hypersensitivity go hand in hand - except for the elite among them.

But I'll defend them in this case. During the regular season, you have a lot of bad or average refs doing games. The same applies in the sectional.

Once you get to district, you get a more refined and experienced group, and it gets more refined as you go into regional and state games. These guys/gals tend to allow more contact off and on the ball. They tend to call fouls only when the contact gives an advantage in terms of possession or, especially, when a shot is taken.

The truth is that fans want a foul called every time their player is touched or bumped, but the best refs are able to discern what contact results in a significant advantage and what contact does not. The refs that can discern the difference and blow the whistle in concert with the flow of the game - not cause the flow or interrupt it - are the best refs.

The one consistent thing between all the reffing from the regular season through the post-season, is that the people doing it are human and will give evidence of their humanity by being in error on occasion.

I think that is a pretty good point you make (much better than the ones from the "officials" on the ref page). Our coach pointed out the team scores of the games are sometimes 10-20 points lower than the averages during the season. Division I & II NW Ohio district scores are a good example of this. I see about 20 or so games a year and I see some really good officials... as a matter of fact I can say I only see about 2 or 3 crews a year that make me scratch my head. For the most part, the officiating is pretty darn good. I just don't like the free for all that happens foul line to foul line during tournament time. I understand "advantage gained" but if you are platooning guys correctly, over the course of the game you can clearly have an advantage by the 4th quarter and never really get in foul trouble while disrupting the offense.

[eddiepittinger]

To me the refs are the same in both regular season and tournament. The play is very physical in both and more and more refs are letting it happen. Skill is becoming a lessor factor in the game all the time. Physical brute strength is becoming more important. The NBA toned down the physicalness of their game about 10 years ago, and for long term survival, High Schools and Colleges will need to do the same. To me, you have to protect the person with the ball and not allow the outright pushing and shoving under the basket, especially when rebounding.

[hawkeyz]

I always get a kick out of the pre-game introduction of officials: "The officials for tonight's game are: Fred Combover, with 12 years of officiating experience; Joe Astygmatism, with 9 years of officiating experience; and Dave Ineptness, with 18 years of officiating experience."

Experience is great, but it says nothing about how good of officials they are. Fred, Joe, and Dave may have been horrible officials for 12, 9, and 18 years respectively!

[roger,roger]

Originally Posted by hawkeyz

I always get a kick out of the pre-game introduction of officials: "The officials for tonight's game are: Fred Combover, with 12 years of officiating experience; Joe Astygmatism, with 9 years of officiating experience; and Dave Ineptness, with 18 years of officiating experience."

Experience is great, but it says nothing about how good of officials they are. Fred, Joe, and Dave may have been horrible officials for 12, 9, and 18 years respectively!

Sounds like a couple of the guys I was dealing with on the officiating page. You won't have to look hard to find them. They own the place.

[tigerracer]

A little off the topic....but what does everyone think when a graduate from a participating school officiates a district game. Should OHSAA allow this????

[roger,roger]

Originally Posted by tigerracer

A little off the topic....but what does everyone think when a graduate from a participating school officiates a district game. Should OHSAA allow this????

That is a tough one because assignments go out way before a team makes it that far. In baseball (my sport) I have had to do games from my home school and also for the schools I am employed by. Once you are around awhile, coaches know you don't care who wins when you put on the colors, but I always try to avoid the appearance of such things. When that happens, I always request bases even though I am more comfortable behind the plate. District committee is in charge of the site, but I certainly understand the point. I don't know the exact process of getting officials for basketball, but I would think it wouldn't be that different from baseball.

[WC12]

Originally Posted by tigerracer

A little off the topic....but what does everyone think when a graduate from a participating school officiates a district game. Should OHSAA allow this????

An official has no business working a tournament game involving a school he/she graduated from. While it's highly unlikely that there would be any bias, the mere fact that there is a connection between the two makes it inappropriate.

Before the assignments are issued, the officials have the opportunity to designate any school that may present a conflict of interest. Once it becomes apparent that a certain school may be headed for that official's game, it's up to the official to contact the District assigner or the State office and make them aware of the potential conflict.

Assignments usually will be adjusted to accomodate.

[lmavcch3]

Yes the officiating is different in athe tournament.

[roger,roger]

Originally Posted by lmavcch3

Yes the officiating is different in athe tournament.

Doesn't get any simpler than that. Honesty doesn't need an explanation, a video, etc.

[dorciepatrick]

Originally Posted by roger,roger

I hurt some officials' feelings on the ref post saying that the change of officiating in the post season (and by change specifically the physicality that is allowed) is the only thing I don't like about tournament basketball. It is almost like there are two rule books. Officials went nuts on me saying there is NO difference at all. They kicked me off their playground. So, what is your take? Do you see a noticeable difference from the regular season to the post season?

You weren't kicked off the "Ask the Ref" forum because some officials' feelings got hurt.
You were kicked off because you repeatedly violated the rules of that Forum -- specifically laid out by Eric Frantz.
No, I'm not an official. I just don't like it when people don't tell the truth.

[roger,roger]

Originally Posted by dorciepatrick

You weren't kicked off the "Ask the Ref" forum because some officials' feelings got hurt.
You were kicked off because you repeatedly violated the rules of that Forum -- specifically laid out by Eric Frantz.
No, I'm not an official. I just don't like it when people don't tell the truth.

I disagree. I was wrong when I said I was kicked off. I chose to leave. The rules are vague. I didn't see that the question was inappropriate in any way. There are two styles of officiating for the season and for the post season. I don't know if that is even debatable, but I'm open to the argument. Their feelings were clearly hurt because 1. they asked for things that aren't readily available... can't post videos here 2. officials started name calling (to which I responded). I think the discussion is appropriate on either page. It's not official bashing as you can see by my responses on that page and this one. It's a point that most everyone that I know- coaches, players, fans... don't like the extent of the physicality in the post season. If I'm attacked, I'll defend, but the first response was to attack the sender of the post and not the concept. If you don't agree with the point, fine. But, to say there isn't a point and to attack the sender.... they got their feelings hurt. (Notice I've argued the point, not the sender here.) Be well.

[Bullbuck82]

I think it's the OFFICIALS that may be different. Out of area crews brought in to avoid bias may call games in a different style than the local crews did during the season. Seemed to be that way in Boardman d2 sectional this year. Refs may not have changed what they were doing all year long, but Akron style may be different than Ytown style.

[lmavcch3]

Bullbuck82, I agree. Many times these officials have never worked together. I think that adds to this situation. IMHO.

[phsgolfcoach]

Originally Posted by lmavcch3

Bullbuck82, I agree. Many times these officials have never worked together. I think that adds to this situation. IMHO.

Great point. I think there is no doubt officials change their style in the post season. I understand why, but I too think the postseason gets beyond what basketball should look like.

[14Red]

I'm certainly not going to disagree that the officiating changes some during the post season, obviously, you are going to (hopefully) get some of the better officials.
However, also keep in mind one thing, as the tournament winds down, there are more and more teams eliminated. Therefore, more disgruntled fans and parents. As we all know (tongue firmly in cheek) officials win and lose games, not players and coaches.
So if you get to a regional final, you have two teams who've got to this point, and all the other teams in the region sitting at home, many feel who they were jobbed by the officials.
I've always felt that there are hundred's of calls in a basketball game, most are judgement calls. Some you get, some you don't and they typically even out in the end.

[roger,roger]

Originally Posted by 14Red

I'm certainly not going to disagree that the officiating changes some during the post season, obviously, you are going to (hopefully) get some of the better officials.
However, also keep in mind one thing, as the tournament winds down, there are more and more teams eliminated. Therefore, more disgruntled fans and parents. As we all know (tongue firmly in cheek) officials win and lose games, not players and coaches.
So if you get to a regional final, you have two teams who've got to this point, and all the other teams in the region sitting at home, many feel who they were jobbed by the officials.
I've always felt that there are hundred's of calls in a basketball game, most are judgement calls. Some you get, some you don't and they typically even out in the end.

I think that is pretty fair. You know something though 14Red... I must be really naive or I just must hang around the right people, but most of the people I know (some officials, some not) don't see the officials as losing or winning a game. The casual observer may, but not the fans... at least not the ones I'm around. Interestingly enough, most of the officials are tougher on other officials than the fans are... maybe because they can pick a part what they do.