[NC Rattlesnake]

TWO DAYS UNTIL REDS BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!

[dorciepatrick]

Originally Posted by 14Red

I would hope that if you HAD to choose one, you'd take Votto over Phillips???

Yes I would, but I also recognize that, should we lose BP after this season, there will be a significant dropoff at 2nd base. Although the Reds have some good prospects for the future there, Phillips has to be considered one of the top 2nd basemen in the major leagues. None of the prospects are ready to step in and perform near his level. In fact, very few 2nd basemen in the major leagues don't perform at his level.
The question is only "Can the Reds afford him?" Since we don't know the terms of Votto's new contract -- which doesn't even kick in for a couple of years -- we don't really know the answer to that.
Perhaps a 3 year deal might be possible? We'll just have to wait and see.

[NC Rattlesnake]

ONE DAY UNTIL REDS BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NC Rattlesnake]

Root for Marlins tonight, Reds fans.

[14Red]

Originally Posted by dorciepatrick

Yes I would, but I also recognize that, should we lose BP after this season, there will be a significant dropoff at 2nd base. Although the Reds have some good prospects for the future there, Phillips has to be considered one of the top 2nd basemen in the major leagues. None of the prospects are ready to step in and perform near his level. In fact, very few 2nd basemen in the major leagues don't perform at his level.
The question is only "Can the Reds afford him?" Since we don't know the terms of Votto's new contract -- which doesn't even kick in for a couple of years -- we don't really know the answer to that.
Perhaps a 3 year deal might be possible? We'll just have to wait and see.

I really like BP and hope he remains a Red. But the market on 2nd basemen overall is pretty low. BP is not going to get Uggla or Utley money, the Braves were insane for giving Uggla that contract last year. I'd go to BP and propose a 5 year $40 million dollar contract ($8 mill per season). I'd also say in 2/3 years, I'd like him to start working in at 3rd base. His 2nd base skills (great now) will start to diminish, but he'd still be a great 3rd baseman in a few years.
Castellini/ Jocketty has made a commitment to this franchis winning. Bring in Latos, Marshall, Ludwick, Madsen(even though he's hurt) and now with locking down a frachise player for the next decade. There's no downside to this.

[82wolve82]

Agree with 14Red and others - it is great to see ownership & management so willing to spend for a winner.

I hope they saved some $$$ for Brandon. He loves Cincy and being a Red, and we love him. He will produce for another 4-5 years, and there is no better defensive player at any position. Gotta have him, Votto and Bruce for the long haul. Dump Rolen, Arroyo and other big veteran contracts if needed.

[bird]

Originally Posted by 14Red

There's no downside to this.

There is potential downside and potential upside to EVERY personnel move.

I don't care how good Votto is, a 10-year deal is a long time to commit to a player.

Let's hope this one works out.

[NC Rattlesnake]

Let's hope he doesn't do an Albert Haynesworth. Personally I don't think he will, but you never know.

[14Red]

Since we've not heard of the details of this contract, maybe the club has some options after 3, 5, 7 years? We don't know. Maybe Votto has a buy out?
And we have to be very careful as fans. We love Brandon, and he appears to really like it here in Cincy. But that's what causes teams to overpay for players. Phillips is a career .270 hitter, yes he hit .300 last year, but he's not been a .300 hitter at any other point in his career. He's got a tremendous glove, but when does the skills start to diminish? You don't want to get in a heavy contract with BP if he starts trailing off.

[bird]

Originally Posted by 14Red

Since we've not heard of the details of this contract, maybe the club has some options after 3, 5, 7 years? We don't know. Maybe Votto has a buy out?
And we have to be very careful as fans. We love Brandon, and he appears to really like it here in Cincy. But that's what causes teams to overpay for players. Phillips is a career .270 hitter, yes he hit .300 last year, but he's not been a .300 hitter at any other point in his career. He's got a tremendous glove, but when does the skills start to diminish? You don't want to get in a heavy contract with BP if he starts trailing off.

I agree that you don't want to get into a long contract with BP, but the same could be said about the 10-year Votto deal.

Maybe there are options along the way, it would be nice to get the details. But the contract goes until Votto is 39 years old. That's a long long time.

Phillips is 30 right now. If he gets maybe a four-year deal, then things can be reevaluated when he is 34.

I like Cozart, and hopefully he has a good year, but he is an unknown. If the Reds rely on too many unknowns, it's going to get dicey having Votto and three question marks starting in the infield each year.

[14Red]

Originally Posted by bird

I like Cozart, and hopefully he has a good year, but he is an unknown. If the Reds rely on too many unknowns, it's going to get dicey having Votto and three question marks starting in the infield each year.

The Cardinals has followed this philsophy for years (very successfully). I think we also need to remember, a bulk of your resources moving forward need to go to pitching. BP is one of the best, AT HIS POSITION. Votto is one of the best, IN BASEBALL. Big difference. Also, looking at each players stats, Phillips has played over 400 more games than Votto in the majors, and he plays a position that demands alot more defensivly on the body. My point, there are alot more miles on BP's tires than on Votto's.

[bird]

Over the past 20 years, the Cardinals have done a lot of things successfully that the Reds haven't been able to do successfully. Let's hope this doesn't wind up being another example.

Look, I'm not saying that Phillips is more integral to the Reds' chances for success than Votto, or that he's a better player.

My main points are:

- A 10-year deal is extremely risky (though we don't know any real details about the contract).
- It might not wind up being worth it if it makes it too hard to retain good established players, and Phillips is the most notable example right now.

[dorciepatrick]

Originally Posted by 14Red

The Cardinals has followed this philsophy for years (very successfully). I think we also need to remember, a bulk of your resources moving forward need to go to pitching. BP is one of the best, AT HIS POSITION. Votto is one of the best, IN BASEBALL. Big difference. Also, looking at each players stats, Phillips has played over 400 more games than Votto in the majors, and he plays a position that demands alot more defensivly on the body. My point, there are alot more miles on BP's tires than on Votto's.

Why do you keep comparing Votto to Phillips? Their situations -- as several of us have tried to express -- are much different.
The Reds seem to need them both -- unless you have reasons that they can afford to have a significant dropoff (both offensively and defensively) at the 2nd base position.
The Reds' up-the-middle defense already consists of a rookie SS and a rookie catcher. Losing a Gold Glove 2nd baseman wouldn't really improve our chances.

[14Red]

Originally Posted by dorciepatrick

Why do you keep comparing Votto to Phillips? Their situations -- as several of us have tried to express -- are much different.
The Reds seem to need them both -- unless you have reasons that they can afford to have a significant dropoff (both offensively and defensively) at the 2nd base position.
The Reds' up-the-middle defense already consists of a rookie SS and a rookie catcher. Losing a Gold Glove 2nd baseman wouldn't really improve our chances.

I'm comparing the two because they have been the two contracts that need to get done moving forward. However, one has to be first, and today, Joey Votto is the more important guy to get locked down moving forward. The Reds are not going to be able to replace BP's glove, but offensively, yes he can be replaced.

[dorciepatrick]

Originally Posted by 14Red

I'm comparing the two because they have been the two contracts that need to get done moving forward. However, one has to be first, and today, Joey Votto is the more important guy to get locked down moving forward. The Reds are not going to be able to replace BP's glove, but offensively, yes he can be replaced.

I'm glad that you agree that they both "need to get done moving forward". Now that Votto's deal has been signed, I would assume that the Reds will turn their attention to keeping Phillips in the fold.
For all of the short-term euphoria (mine included) regarding Votto's 10-year contract, if its size precludes the Reds from signing other vital players to their success, then the euphoria could be short-lived.
I hope not, but we all recall the Rangers' signing of A-Rod to his first huge contract. Yes, they had his services, but they then didn't have the further resources to keep a competitive team on the field.
I think the Reds' front office is smarter than that. How they resolve Phillips' situation will be the first indication of how Votto's deal will impact other players.

[14Red]

Agree dorcie, we hope the Reds front office is smarter than that. Jocketty has a pretty good track record so I'll trust him.

I hope people don't feel too sorry for Brandon, he IS getting paid $11.5 mill this season. The highest paid Red in 2012.

Now, let's all relax and enjoy. Also remember, Joey Votto is still the same player. He'll strike out with the bases loaded sometimes. He's not going to hit 50 home runs and drive in 150 runs. He'll be the solid, everyday Joey Votto that we know.

[14Red]

Ok let's do something...

The Reds WILL win the National League Central IF...


The Reds WON'T win the National League Central IF...

[SOHNSA]

As a long time Red's fanatic, here is my take so far on whats going on.

Positives:

Votto Signing: Sends message to fans and every person in that organization that they are "in it to win it" for the long term. The Reds are still young as a whole and if they were to win the WS, fans could be worried that they pull a Jeff Lorie and sell off the teams for prospects like he did with the 2003 Marlins the following seasons.

Francisco Trade: Sends another message to the organization that potential alone isn't going to cut it. If your talented but lazy, expect to find another clubs name on your pay stubs in the future. Juan was injured late last season and came in to this years camp 15 lbs overweight and sluggish. Wrong move! Juan should have came in at weight or even slightly under to send the message that he meant business in his quest for more playing time and possibly allowing the Reds to deal Rolen near the deadline for any potential help. Kudos to Jockety and Baker for having the "kahonies" to make this move.

Jay Bruce: See Juan Francisco for potential w/ no work ethic. Bruce has came to camp in the best shape so far of his playing career and it shows with his routes to the ball and his baserunning. This kid gets "it" and should be a huge part of the teams successes this year.

Negatives:

Votto Signing I am not a fan of these long deals over 5 years. 10 years is a lifetime in a professional athletes career. Look how many players have inked these type of deals in various sports and look how often these have been a handicap to future moves. Allen Houston is one that comes to mind. The Knicks were handcuffed with that salary for years even after he was medically retired. More recently Carl Pavano comes to mind. Pavano should be made to payback every dime for the 2 3/4 years he never even took the field for the Yankees. I am old enough to remember Clevelands first dip in the free agent pool: Wayne Garland. 10 years at 11 million was the deal. The yearly average is what Miguel Cairo or Craig Counsell would get now as an experienced role player. Garland pitched 1 full year and parts of 2 others and then was medically retired while Cleveland paid every dime of that salary. I hope the same doesn't happen to the Reds as they had the misfortune of having Jr Griffey on the back end of his career with a big salary and constant injuries.

Brandon Phillips: He will come due and every sports talk guy is bemoaning the fact that he will command a huge deal. He is 30 this season and this is the peak of his earning potential. Hopefully Jockety can find a way to give him a 3-5 year deal. Personally I think 4 would be perfect and at a top 3 at his position type of salary. He does give good production whether at the top of the lineup or one of the power spots. His glove is second to none and the fans love him. The Votto deal now imposes some certain economic realities to the Reds. Hopefully he doesn't get the chop as there isn't much pickings in the rest of the league and Chris Valaika is probably a better utility infielder like Paul Janish and Wilson Valdez should be.

Well enough for now. Go Reds at 4:15 today and hopefully this thread stays civil like it has so far.

[dorciepatrick]

Originally Posted by 14Red

Agree dorcie, we hope the Reds front office is smarter than that. Jocketty has a pretty good track record so I'll trust him.

I hope people don't feel too sorry for Brandon, he IS getting paid $11.5 mill this season. The highest paid Red in 2012.

Now, let's all relax and enjoy. Also remember, Joey Votto is still the same player. He'll strike out with the bases loaded sometimes. He's not going to hit 50 home runs and drive in 150 runs. He'll be the solid, everyday Joey Votto that we know.

We're on the same page here. When Walt Jocketty was hired, I truly believed that -- as long as a reasonable effort was made by ownership to "open the wallet", the Reds would come back to contending for pennants. I, like you, trust Walt to make the right decisions.
I do hope, though, that we can sign BP for something like a $30 million/3 year deal. That should pay him fairly through the rest of his top productive years, as well as allow the Reds -- down the road -- to keep their nucleus on board.

[dorciepatrick]

As far as Votto is concerned, I agree that he'll remain the same player we've seen. I fear, though, that fans will expect him to have an MVP-type year every year. As we know, occasionally players -- for whatever reason -- can have a bad season. However, over the course of his contract -- barring any severe injuries -- I think that Joey Votto will perform as most of us reasonably expect that he will.