[kenworth]

Happened yesterday, description as follows: Four Umpires on the field, Runner on first base steals second on the pitch, the pitch was ball four on the batter, funner is "thrown out at second" second base umpire rings up the runner not aware that is was ball four. Runner at second leaves the base to go back towards first base dugout, is tagged by the shortstop with the ball. Ruling???

[dorciepatrick]

The call by the umpire on the "steal" at 2nd base is immaterial and should be disregarded, due to the walk drawn by the batter.
However, the runner at 2nd is out because he left the safety of the base, leaving him susceptible to being tagged out -- which he was.
I am assuming that -- in going back toward the first base dugout -- he was still on the field of play and in the baseline.
However, if he would have simply headed to the dugout without being tagged, he would have been out as well for abandoning the bag.

[kenworth]

so when do you leave the base after being called out?? he was told by the ump he was out so he left the base, when does he disregard what the ump says and when does he listen? I don't blame the ump but the situation could have been fixed and play on as if the had communicated as they should have. there was a conference while all four talked over the situation. No common sense rule applies here???????

[Bawlhawk]

No, No, & No ....
First off, shame on field Ump for not knowing the count or the game situation.
Now, don't get me wrong but accidents do happen.
In that case, the UIC should have stepped in and used Book Rule 10-2 art. 3 L
"Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage".

The umpire's can get together and rectify an error on their part. Especially when it's that cut and dry.
Walk over to each coach and simply state. "Coach, my bad ... I did call him out on the play, I got caught up in the play at the bag. It was ball 4. I'm putting the runner back.
If any coach gives you flack over that, then something is wrong.

[kenworth]

In that case, the UIC should have stepped in and used Book Rule 10-2 art. 3 L
"Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage".

The umpire's can get together and rectify an error on their part. Especially when it's that cut and dry.
Walk over to each coach and simply state. "Coach, my bad ... I did call him out on the play, I got caught up in the play at the bag. It was ball 4. I'm putting the runner back.
If any coach gives you flack over that, then something is wrong.[/quote]

I tend to agree with the common sense ruling here. If I as an umpire make a ruling that can be corrected I will do it, if I get fired then so be it.

[kenworth]

Major League Baseball Rule Book
9.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire
for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to
reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the
umpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been
made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in
their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they
are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have
been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding
interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to
tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or
missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires. No player, manager or
coach shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in
resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be subject to ejection.

does this rule seem to apply here?

[FBUmp]

Originally Posted by kenworth

If I as an umpire make a ruling that can be corrected I will do it, if I get fired then so be it.

You can correct the ruling if the rules allow. But if the rules don;t allow it, you don't change the call. You state you would change the call and if you're fired, so be it.

But think about that. You're saying the umpire should change a call, even if it's contrary to the rules. Officials don't get to make their own rules.

Originally Posted by kenworth

Major League Baseball Rule Book
9.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires. No player, manager or coach shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be subject to ejection.

does this rule seem to apply here?

Was it a MLB game? I believe bawlhawk is quoting the NFHS rule book. Rules vary between HS, NCAA, and MLB.

[kenworth]

ncaa college baseball game D III league conference final.

[toledomansfield]

I agree. put the runner back on. that play probably wouldn't have happened with 2 umps i think. maybe with 4 umps they lose a little focus on the count cause they just have the responsibility of their base. especially the 2nd base ump.

[delphi]

This exact scenario happened in a Reds-Astros game in the late 70's. Astro's player called out stealing second on ball four. He began trotting toward the dugout and after a few steps went back to second after realizing it was ball four. Was tagged out, a full fledged brewhaha ensued with several Astros being ejected. I remember thinking at the time that the umps lacked any common sense.

[FBUmp]

Originally Posted by delphi

I remember thinking at the time that the umps lacked any common sense.

Common sense doesn't have anything to do with it. You have to follow the rules of the game you're playing. Umpires aren't allowed to set aside the rules just because it seems like the right thing to do.

[delphi]

Originally Posted by FBUmp

Common sense doesn't have anything to do with it. You have to follow the rules of the game you're playing. Umpires aren't allowed to set aside the rules just because it seems like the right thing to do.

Common sense has everything to do with it. If you're blown call is the only reason for the out and you can rectify it you should do it. It happens all the time on tag plays where an out call is made when the fielder drops the ball and the call is changed to safe.

Just how long should a runner stay on the base after he's called out?

I've seen an ump erroneously call an infield fly with runners on first and third only and the ball is dropped. Do you still call the batter out?

If you ring somebody up on strike three but later realize it was only two do you rectify it?

Bottom line - this is not a judgement call - you've "set aside" the rules of the game by calling someone out that according to those very rules should not have been. You should correct this if possible.

[FBUmp]

None of that means anything with regards to setting aside a rule. If the rules do not allow you to change the call, then you cannot change the call. If the rule allows it, then you can change it. It's that simple, common sense has nothing to do with it.

Thanks for the discussion.

[delphi]

Originally Posted by FBUmp

None of that means anything with regards to setting aside a rule. If the rules do not allow you to change the call, then you cannot change the call. If the rule allows it, then you can change it. It's that simple, common sense has nothing to do with it.

Thanks for the discussion.

I'm really not sure what the argument is. I just gave three examples where you do change the call (the last two were calls that by definition do not conform to the rules), and no one would take issue with changing it.

What I'm having trouble grasping is you already set aside the rules by making an illegal call. You seem to be saying you can't set aside the rules by changing a call that itself set aside the rules.

[MaxPower]

Originally Posted by delphi

Common sense has everything to do with it. If you're blown call is the only reason for the out and you can rectify it you should do it. It happens all the time on tag plays where an out call is made when the fielder drops the ball and the call is changed to safe.

Just how long should a runner stay on the base after he's called out?

I've seen an ump erroneously call an infield fly with runners on first and third only and the ball is dropped. Do you still call the batter out?

If you ring somebody up on strike three but later realize it was only two do you rectify it?

Bottom line - this is not a judgement call - you've "set aside" the rules of the game by calling someone out that according to those very rules should not have been. You should correct this if possible.

The other thing people are missing is that it is the responsibility of the players and managers to know the game situation. If a umpire mistakenly tells a player he only has one strike when he has two, and the next pitch is a strike, the batter is out.

The player ( in the posted situation) should have looked at first, saw his teammate, stayed on 2nd, called time and wait until the play was resolved.

[Baseball_Lover]

Not one person here has put any blame on the runner. In my opinion, that is where the blame solely lies in this situation. Anytime you are stealing with 3 balls on the batter, you're not so much trying to steal the base but instead getting a head start since the pitch will either be ball 4 or the hitter should put the ball in play if it is a strike. It is very similar to a hit and run. The runner should take a peek in towards the plate to see the action (ball, put in play, etc) and then proceed from there. Too often players, coaches, and fans wanna put blame on umpires to cover up the stupidity on the players' part.

[tcsoup]

Can't believe the resident expert on all things Baseball or other wise WC12 didn't chime in with his opinion.

[WC12]

Originally Posted by tcsoup

Can't believe the resident expert on all things Baseball or other wise WC12 didn't chime in with his opinion.

First, I'm not going to apologize for knowing my avocation.

Second, there's other things in life more important than this, like attending the funeral of an 8 year old boy who lost his 4 year fight with Leukemia.


With regards to the OP. All four major codes (MLB, NCAA, NAIA, FED) agree that the umpire put the runner at a disadvantage and should be protected. The ball is dead and we should put the runner(s) at the appropriate base(s).

The FED has a Case Book play very similar to the original post....

10.2.3 SITUATION H:

With a count of three balls and two strikes on B2 and R1 on first base, the batter takes what appears to be a half swing. The plate umpire calls ball four and R1, upon hearing ball four, then trots to second base. The catcher throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 before he reaches base. The catcher asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire to see if B2 did, in fact, attempt to hit the pitch. The base umpire indicates that the batter did swing at the ball.

RULING: The plate umpire will declare the batter out and return R1 to first
base. The umpire-in-chief can rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed a base runner in jeopardy.

[chipsully]

ok, here is a variation that I saw recently....American League rules.
batter runner tops a ball between 2nd,P, 1st base....crosses 1st and ump calls safe, both verbally and with arms-2nd covering was not on bag when taking throw. batter/runner turns around (to the left, but no attempt to advance..didnt even look to second)and walks back to first--- prior to getting to bad, 2nd baseman tags runner- ump calls out

what you need to know-runner did MISS the bag (stepped over it, there were 3 players converged on first at the same time 1b,2b, and runner) while trying to avoid collision.

due to ump calling safe, runner just walked back...does the call stand?

[FBUmp]

As I recall, in such a case, safe is the correct call. The defense must then tag the runner immediately OR after the ball is put back in play, appeal that the runner must the bag and throw to the bag.