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2012 NL Central Division Champions Cincinnati Reds Page Title Module
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  • #61
    TWO DAYS UNTIL REDS BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!

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    • #62
      Originally posted by 14Red View Post
      I would hope that if you HAD to choose one, you'd take Votto over Phillips???
      Yes I would, but I also recognize that, should we lose BP after this season, there will be a significant dropoff at 2nd base. Although the Reds have some good prospects for the future there, Phillips has to be considered one of the top 2nd basemen in the major leagues. None of the prospects are ready to step in and perform near his level. In fact, very few 2nd basemen in the major leagues don't perform at his level.
      The question is only "Can the Reds afford him?" Since we don't know the terms of Votto's new contract -- which doesn't even kick in for a couple of years -- we don't really know the answer to that.
      Perhaps a 3 year deal might be possible? We'll just have to wait and see.
      Last edited by dorciepatrick; 04-04-2012, 06:05 AM.

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      • #63
        ONE DAY UNTIL REDS BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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        • #64
          Root for Marlins tonight, Reds fans.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by dorciepatrick View Post
            Yes I would, but I also recognize that, should we lose BP after this season, there will be a significant dropoff at 2nd base. Although the Reds have some good prospects for the future there, Phillips has to be considered one of the top 2nd basemen in the major leagues. None of the prospects are ready to step in and perform near his level. In fact, very few 2nd basemen in the major leagues don't perform at his level.
            The question is only "Can the Reds afford him?" Since we don't know the terms of Votto's new contract -- which doesn't even kick in for a couple of years -- we don't really know the answer to that.
            Perhaps a 3 year deal might be possible? We'll just have to wait and see.
            I really like BP and hope he remains a Red. But the market on 2nd basemen overall is pretty low. BP is not going to get Uggla or Utley money, the Braves were insane for giving Uggla that contract last year. I'd go to BP and propose a 5 year $40 million dollar contract ($8 mill per season). I'd also say in 2/3 years, I'd like him to start working in at 3rd base. His 2nd base skills (great now) will start to diminish, but he'd still be a great 3rd baseman in a few years.
            Castellini/ Jocketty has made a commitment to this franchis winning. Bring in Latos, Marshall, Ludwick, Madsen(even though he's hurt) and now with locking down a frachise player for the next decade. There's no downside to this.

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            • #66
              Agree with 14Red and others - it is great to see ownership & management so willing to spend for a winner.

              I hope they saved some $$$ for Brandon. He loves Cincy and being a Red, and we love him. He will produce for another 4-5 years, and there is no better defensive player at any position. Gotta have him, Votto and Bruce for the long haul. Dump Rolen, Arroyo and other big veteran contracts if needed.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by 14Red View Post
                There's no downside to this.
                There is potential downside and potential upside to EVERY personnel move.

                I don't care how good Votto is, a 10-year deal is a long time to commit to a player.

                Let's hope this one works out.

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                • #68
                  Let's hope he doesn't do an Albert Haynesworth. Personally I don't think he will, but you never know.

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                  • #69
                    Since we've not heard of the details of this contract, maybe the club has some options after 3, 5, 7 years? We don't know. Maybe Votto has a buy out?
                    And we have to be very careful as fans. We love Brandon, and he appears to really like it here in Cincy. But that's what causes teams to overpay for players. Phillips is a career .270 hitter, yes he hit .300 last year, but he's not been a .300 hitter at any other point in his career. He's got a tremendous glove, but when does the skills start to diminish? You don't want to get in a heavy contract with BP if he starts trailing off.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 14Red View Post
                      Since we've not heard of the details of this contract, maybe the club has some options after 3, 5, 7 years? We don't know. Maybe Votto has a buy out?
                      And we have to be very careful as fans. We love Brandon, and he appears to really like it here in Cincy. But that's what causes teams to overpay for players. Phillips is a career .270 hitter, yes he hit .300 last year, but he's not been a .300 hitter at any other point in his career. He's got a tremendous glove, but when does the skills start to diminish? You don't want to get in a heavy contract with BP if he starts trailing off.
                      I agree that you don't want to get into a long contract with BP, but the same could be said about the 10-year Votto deal.

                      Maybe there are options along the way, it would be nice to get the details. But the contract goes until Votto is 39 years old. That's a long long time.

                      Phillips is 30 right now. If he gets maybe a four-year deal, then things can be reevaluated when he is 34.

                      I like Cozart, and hopefully he has a good year, but he is an unknown. If the Reds rely on too many unknowns, it's going to get dicey having Votto and three question marks starting in the infield each year.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by bird View Post

                        I like Cozart, and hopefully he has a good year, but he is an unknown. If the Reds rely on too many unknowns, it's going to get dicey having Votto and three question marks starting in the infield each year.
                        The Cardinals has followed this philsophy for years (very successfully). I think we also need to remember, a bulk of your resources moving forward need to go to pitching. BP is one of the best, AT HIS POSITION. Votto is one of the best, IN BASEBALL. Big difference. Also, looking at each players stats, Phillips has played over 400 more games than Votto in the majors, and he plays a position that demands alot more defensivly on the body. My point, there are alot more miles on BP's tires than on Votto's.

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                        • #72
                          Over the past 20 years, the Cardinals have done a lot of things successfully that the Reds haven't been able to do successfully. Let's hope this doesn't wind up being another example.

                          Look, I'm not saying that Phillips is more integral to the Reds' chances for success than Votto, or that he's a better player.

                          My main points are:

                          - A 10-year deal is extremely risky (though we don't know any real details about the contract).
                          - It might not wind up being worth it if it makes it too hard to retain good established players, and Phillips is the most notable example right now.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by 14Red View Post
                            The Cardinals has followed this philsophy for years (very successfully). I think we also need to remember, a bulk of your resources moving forward need to go to pitching. BP is one of the best, AT HIS POSITION. Votto is one of the best, IN BASEBALL. Big difference. Also, looking at each players stats, Phillips has played over 400 more games than Votto in the majors, and he plays a position that demands alot more defensivly on the body. My point, there are alot more miles on BP's tires than on Votto's.
                            Why do you keep comparing Votto to Phillips? Their situations -- as several of us have tried to express -- are much different.
                            The Reds seem to need them both -- unless you have reasons that they can afford to have a significant dropoff (both offensively and defensively) at the 2nd base position.
                            The Reds' up-the-middle defense already consists of a rookie SS and a rookie catcher. Losing a Gold Glove 2nd baseman wouldn't really improve our chances.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by dorciepatrick View Post
                              Why do you keep comparing Votto to Phillips? Their situations -- as several of us have tried to express -- are much different.
                              The Reds seem to need them both -- unless you have reasons that they can afford to have a significant dropoff (both offensively and defensively) at the 2nd base position.
                              The Reds' up-the-middle defense already consists of a rookie SS and a rookie catcher. Losing a Gold Glove 2nd baseman wouldn't really improve our chances.
                              I'm comparing the two because they have been the two contracts that need to get done moving forward. However, one has to be first, and today, Joey Votto is the more important guy to get locked down moving forward. The Reds are not going to be able to replace BP's glove, but offensively, yes he can be replaced.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by 14Red View Post
                                I'm comparing the two because they have been the two contracts that need to get done moving forward. However, one has to be first, and today, Joey Votto is the more important guy to get locked down moving forward. The Reds are not going to be able to replace BP's glove, but offensively, yes he can be replaced.
                                I'm glad that you agree that they both "need to get done moving forward". Now that Votto's deal has been signed, I would assume that the Reds will turn their attention to keeping Phillips in the fold.
                                For all of the short-term euphoria (mine included) regarding Votto's 10-year contract, if its size precludes the Reds from signing other vital players to their success, then the euphoria could be short-lived.
                                I hope not, but we all recall the Rangers' signing of A-Rod to his first huge contract. Yes, they had his services, but they then didn't have the further resources to keep a competitive team on the field.
                                I think the Reds' front office is smarter than that. How they resolve Phillips' situation will be the first indication of how Votto's deal will impact other players.

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