Save the Mid-Buckeye Conference!

[hardscrabble]

What about Crestview, Plymouth, Mapleton, Lucas, Colonel Crawford, Crestline and/or Hillsdale joining Danville, East Knox and Loudonville in the Mid-Buckeye Conference? This would be a great fit geographically, enrollment size and bringing together old rivalries. The remaining three schools should fight to keep the league going. It would seem to solve some problems of travel, enrollment size, and competitiveness, particularly in football. This would seemly revive and old idea, namely, the Johnny Appleseed Conference.

Lucas Cubs
Northwest District, Richland County
5 First Avenue, Lucas, 44843-0327
Enrollment: Class A (79), Class A (63)

Crestview Cougars
Northwest District, Richland County
1575 State Route 96 Ashland, 44805-9633
Enrollment: Boys (175); Class AA (141)

Loudonville Redbirds
Northeast District; Ashland County
421 Campus Ave. Loudonville, 44842-1104
Enrollment: Boys (175); Class A (144)

East Knox Bulldogs
Central District, Knox County
23227 Coshocton Rd Howard, 43028-0128
Enrollment: Boys (197); Girls (146)

Hillsdale Falcons
Northeast District; Ashland County
485 Twp Road 1902, Jeromesville, 44840-9754
Enrollment: Boys (149); Girls (144)

Mapleton Mounties
Northeast District, Ashland County
1 Mountie Drive, Ashland, 44805-8843
Enrollment: Boys (117); Girls (127)

Danville Blue Devils
Central District, Knox County
10 Rambo Street Danville, 43014-0030
Enrollment: Boys (86); Girls (84)

Plymouth Big Red
Northwest District, Richland County
400 Trux Street, Plymouth, 44865-1133
Enrollment: Boys (130) Girls (108)

Crestline
Northwest Dist.Crawford County
7854 Oldfield Rd, Crestline, 44827-9782
BoysClass A (87)GirlsClass A (85)

Colonel Crawford
Northwest District, Crawford County
2303 State Route 602 PO Box 7 North Robinson, 44856
Boys Class AA (133) Girls Class A (106)

[2 time all-ohio]

I could only see one of those teams being remotely interested and that would be Lucas.

[BPM]

Hardscrabble I admire your perseverance. You are definitely not giving up on the MBC without a fight.

But at some point it might be time to let it go.

[DaPlane]

Crestview, Mapleton and Plymouth already have a conference.

[44falcon44]

Hillsdale has been in the WCAL for 40+ yrs and is quite happy where they are at!

[hardscrabble]

The decision to change athletic conferences is for most schools only made every thirty or forty years or more. When the time does come it is usually out of frustration with enrollment size of the other school members, or other members leaving that are considered rivals, or travel has become too expensive. I do realize that all of the schools are in other leagues. I am basically asking if those schools are too small to compete for championships and/or winning seasons in football and/or has travel become too expensive. Danville, East Knox and Loudonville have had other schools exit the M-BC for various reasons. They now find themselves geographically isolated from any conveniently located conference in which they would be considered for membership. But there are a number of schools in the surrounding area that are conveniently located and similar in enrollment numbers.

Have the three schools in the Firelands Plymouth, Mapleton and Crestview been successful in football at anytime during their membership. Doesn't Norwalk St. Paul and several other schools dominate.

What about Lucas and Crestline's success in football in the North Central Conference. Many championship? Winning seasons? What about the other sports?

The same questions can be asked of Colonel Crawford and Hillsdale.

[Red_Skin_Pride]

The decision to change athletic conferences is for most schools only made every thirty or forty years or more. When the time does come it is usually out of frustration with enrollment size of the other school members, or other members leaving that are considered rivals, or travel has become too expensive. I do realize that all of the schools are in other leagues. I am basically asking if those schools are too small to compete for championships and/or winning seasons in football and/or has travel become too expensive. Danville, East Knox and Loudonville have had other schools exit the M-BC for various reasons. They now find themselves geographically isolated from any conveniently located conference in which they would be considered for membership. But there are a number of schools in the surrounding area that are conveniently located and similar in enrollment numbers.

Have the three schools in the Firelands Plymouth, Mapleton and Crestview been successful in football at anytime during their membership. Doesn't Norwalk St. Paul and several other schools dominate.

What about Lucas and Crestline's success in football in the North Central Conference. Many championship? Winning seasons? What about the other sports?

The same questions can be asked of Colonel Crawford and Hillsdale.

If football were the only sport in consideration, you might have a point. But when schools look in to potentially changing conferences, they look at every factor such as overall athletic relevance in their current conference (meaning, how their sports..fall, winter and spring, compete on a whole), geography, cost, rivalries and what I like to call common sense...why would schools leave a conference they've been in for so long without some or many clear cut advantages or necessities? For example, the LCL is reforming because these schools are all within the same county (close geography) which cuts down on travel costs for all of them, keeps an intense rivalry with fans in the county= higher gates (which is also tied to shorter travel distances), and that most of the schools in the conference already play each other in football and other sports and in the majority of all sports, they are fairly competitive with one another. The "bringing back old rivalries" is just the icing on top of the cake, but not the sole reason, nor even one of the top 3 most important considerations taken into account when it was voted on.

Those schools that you mentioned are already in leagues where they have built rivalries, they are comfortable with the costs/competition to play those schools, and have a familiar schedule. There's no clear cut advantage to joining the remaining Knox county MBC schools because let's be honest, EK is rarely competitive in sports, Cburg's been down in some sports lately, but they do have some good teams, and Danville has a few good sports but not many, and they're TINY. Your sports teams aren't going to get (such as in football) any points for beating Danville, even if they're good, or the bigger 2 schools UNLESS they're having a really good year, and that's been very inconsistent here lately. I know from your perspective it makes perfect sense, but from the other schools perspective, the ones you mentioned, the fact that you don't have a league and don't have anyone close to you to join with isn't a legit reason and really isn't any of their concern....Ftown really screwed you guys over, and I feel bad for the Blue Devils, Bulldogs and Trojans, but the MBC is OVER.

[hardscrabble]

I won't keep "beating a dead horse" and try to get people on this site to discuss the plight of the Mid-Buckeye Conference. I guess since 1948 the MBC has been revived two times so the third time was the charm. The "death rattle" can be heard loud and clear now.

It would be interesting to learn what options for league membership are being discussed in the Danville, East Knox and Loudonville communities? What have the conversations been like between the Knox County 4 school,s administrations and their boards with the rest of the schools. Will there be future "scheduling" meetings to make sure that Frederictown and Centeburg schedule their neighbors as often as possible? Or will hoslities be such that no scheduling will take place between the two new MOAC members and Danville and East Knox? Have overtures been made to and from the ECOL and to the new Licking County League? Anyone in the know on any of this?

[wantawinatitle]

RSP how can you say that Ftown screwed anybody over in this debate. They looked for no league change until the Licking County Schools chose to go back to the LCL? I think those schools going back to the LCL is great and what they want to do, but how can Ftown be to blame? Cburg is going to the MOAC with Ftown. Besides EK and Dville not having great teams lately, it has more to do with facilities and economic outlooks than anything else.. Ridgedale, Mt Gilead and Northmor have not set the world on fire lately..

[BPM]

RSP you need to go back to the beginning on how this all started -- you and Johnstown cuddling up to the Licking County schools and talking about reforming the LCL.

None of the MBC Knox 4 took any action to leave the MBC until you guys committed to the LCL. At that point Centerburg and Fredericktown went down the path that those administrations thought was in the best interest of their kids.

Obviously they considered trying to weather the storm with Danville and EK but their decision to take the MOAC offer on the table was reviewed by their respective boards before being accepted. I would have liked to have seen the Knox 4 stick together but I understand the decision and I don't see how you can blame Fredericktown or Centerburg for doing what they considered to be the best thing for their communities.

[2 time all-ohio]

Loudonville has submitted letters to the WCL and Firelands.....also looking to send a letter to the NCC. The best of those options would be the WCL but they have 8 teans and haven't aded a new team since Hillsdale back in the early 70's. I don't think they are looking to expand but keep holding out hope they may reconsider.

[doublenickle]

Utica and J-town going to the LCL was a a good move and in their best interest... Centerburg and Fredericktown leaving the Knox county schools??? Unreal! Bad moves on their part. Should have stuck with their agreement and kept the Knox county schools as a package deal. Dirty!
Plus Im not sure why the MBC couldnt function with 5 teams??? Why did it throw the cards in when the Licking County Schools left?? MBC has ran fine with less then that before? Still shaking my head.

[Red_Skin_Pride]

RSP how can you say that Ftown screwed anybody over in this debate. They looked for no league change until the Licking County Schools chose to go back to the LCL? I think those schools going back to the LCL is great and what they want to do, but how can Ftown be to blame? Cburg is going to the MOAC with Ftown. Besides EK and Dville not having great teams lately, it has more to do with facilities and economic outlooks than anything else.. Ridgedale, Mt Gilead and Northmor have not set the world on fire lately..

I hate to tell you but all four AD's from the 4 knox county schools said that wherever they went, they wanted to go together....until Fredericktown got an offer they couldn't refuse from a conference that said they'd rather not have East Knox and Danville because of distance and school size...then all of the sudden it wasn't "we're all going somewhere together" it was "you guys are on your own". Northridge, Utica and Johnstown all told everybody what their intent was, and what was happening. All the Knox county schools reacted to that by saying basically "we're sticking together", but it turned out to be Fredericktown (and Cburg, my apologies for typing too fast above) changing their minds and saying "you guys stick together, we're leaving". You can think what you want, but the LC schools let everyone know what they were doing immediately, did it, and didn't mislead anyone. From the 2 AD's and a board member from the MOAC I spoke with in may, that was far from what happened in the Knox county schools situation. (Also, see point #3 in my post below this one).

And to your last point....so Mt. Gilead, Ridgedale and Northmor haven't "set the world on fire" lately so you think they should form a conference with 2-3 other schools that we have already discussed haven't had very good sports programs lately? Gee, that'll be entertaining to watch, and produce a lot of good teams :rolleyes: Not to mention all 27 people that will come to the games...You'll have a conference that's just as spread out as the current MBC is, with less successful teams, and smaller schools, all equaling LESS money. I don't see the logic.

If I was EK or Danville's AD, my first call after Fredericktown and Centerburg decided they were headed to the MOAC would have been to the MSL-Cardinal...not any further from other proposed conferences, good competitive smaller school conference, and they're losing at least 1 member (Licking Heights to the LCL).

[Red_Skin_Pride]

Utica and J-town going to the LCL was a a good move and in their best interest... Centerburg and Fredericktown leaving the Knox county schools??? Unreal! Bad moves on their part. Should have stuck with their agreement and kept the Knox county schools as a package deal. Dirty!
Plus Im not sure why the MBC couldnt function with 5 teams??? Why did it throw the cards in when the Licking County Schools left?? MBC has ran fine with less then that before? Still shaking my head.

A few reasons I can think of, and I'll use football as the example sport...Assuming the MBC stayed together with the 4 knox county schools and Loudonville...1. Money. Who is going to go to the conference games to watch Fredericktown kill everybody? 2 of your 3 biggest schools AND 2 of the 3 top schools that bring people to games just left the conference, leaving only 2 D. IV schools left in the conference, and both of them aren't bringing a ton of people to the games. Everyone else is D. V or smaller, and of those 3 teams, only Fredericktown travels well.

2. Scheduling...almost every conference in the state has a format of weeks 1-3 nonleague, weeks 4-10 league games. If the MBC has only 5 teams, how do you fill the other 3 weeks, when 90%+ of the rest of ohio teams are playing their conference schedule? There are only so many Ready's and Hartley's out there.

3. And #2 brings me to my last, and MOST IMPORTANT POINT. Computer points. The remaining top team/2 teams in the league get no computer points from this league. Take Fredericktown this coming year...they would play their same nonleague schedule (which by the way, already includes Ready, so they'd be even harder pressed to find teams to play in an extended nonleague schedule) in weeks 1-3, and their 4 league games...they'd be stuck with finding basically whoever they could possibly play for the other 3 games...where do their big computer points come from? Sure, they'd get good points from beating (assuming they win these games) Highland and Ready...but who else? The only way they'd get any points worth mentioning in the league is if Centerburg and East Knox were to win 5-6 or more games, but as we already established, that's been very hard to rely on in the past 4-5 years. You get very little from Danville, even if they're good because they're smaller than everybody. Loudonville offers some points if they're good, but even less than the D. IV schools because they're smaller (D. V). See, football playoffs are all about beating bigger schools than you, who have good records, and THOSE schools also beating a few quality schools along the way (2nd level points). In the CURRENT MBC, Fredericktown has gotten a TON of points the last two years for beating Highland and other decent teams out of conference, plus beating EK, Cburg, Utica and Johnstown (all D. IV) who are all BIGGER than them. Because Jtown and Utica have had pretty decent records the past few years and they're bigger, if Fredericktown wins those games, they're almost assured a playoff spot in D. V because they beat a few mediocre D. V and D.IV teams (Loudonville, East Knox), plus 3 pretty good D. IV teams (Highland, Utica, Johnstown) which are ALL equal to or bigger than they are. With a 5 team league and Utica/Johnstown gone, there's nobody replacing those points. They will be hard pressed to find a nonleague game in weeks 4-10 that will give them ANY points, much less 2 or 3 good teams.
Then you might have a situation like Utica was in during the early 90's in the BAC...you go 10-0 and still don't get in the playoffs...different system than now I know, but still, it's a possibility if your league doesn't afford you enough points...and that league, with the current state of the 5 teams that would remain, plus the 3 other games each team would have to find, offers very, very few points for it's current top team. And if you think the people that make those decisions in Fredericktown didn't figure that out, you're naive. The proof is in the fact that they're already committed to a new conference, and EK and Danville are still out there by themselves.

[wantawinatitle]

So how is the Licking teams leaving a good thing and Fredericktown and Centerburg leaving a bad thing? And everybody is so sure that FT and CB did the other schools wrong, maybe they did something wrong in their attempt to get into the MOAC? A 14 team conference is not ideal to have two divisions, but 16 works pretty well, but still they did not take them. So because the MOAC chose not to take them does that mean the FT and CB should just abandon what is best for them? What if the LCL did not really want NRidge would Utica and Johnstown stick around for the Vikings? Not in a million years...

[doublenickle]

?????? Comparing Apples to Oranges?? Utica and J-town are joining their county schools. Fredericktown and C-burg are spitting in the face of their county schools.
If the MOAC would have taken all the Knox County Schools it would have been a good move. (as much as it pains me to see the MBC dissolve) But the moment they found out they werent taking all the schools. It became a bad move. Pretty simple.

[wantawinatitle]

Yeah it is a bad move... You ever been in the locker room at Danville? Sure stick around for those schools... Really...

[usonicelc]

?????? Comparing Apples to Oranges?? Utica and J-town are joining their county schools. Fredericktown and C-burg are spitting in the face of their county schools.
If the MOAC would have taken all the Knox County Schools it would have been a good move. (as much as it pains me to see the MBC dissolve) But the moment they found out they werent taking all the schools. It became a bad move. Pretty simple.

All four Knox County schools applied for membership in the MOAC. Only two were accepted. The four Knox County schools' hands were tied by the actions of Utica, Johnstown and Northridge to join the LCL. It's not Fredericktown or Centerburg's fault the other two didn't get in. It was the decision of the MOAC not to invite them. You can't blame Fredericktown or Centerburg for the actions of the decision makers in the MOAC.

It wasn't a bad move for FHS or CHS, it was a bad decision by the MOAC brass.

Don't get me wrong. I'm livid about having to see the MBC die ... AGAIN. I was in favor of Fredericktown joining back in the late 90s and was thrilled to see Utica want in as well. Plus, I believe the new LCL will turn out to be exactly what the old LCL was before it died: Newark Catholic and nine others.

[Red_Skin_Pride]

So how is the Licking teams leaving a good thing and Fredericktown and Centerburg leaving a bad thing? And everybody is so sure that FT and CB did the other schools wrong, maybe they did something wrong in their attempt to get into the MOAC? A 14 team conference is not ideal to have two divisions, but 16 works pretty well, but still they did not take them. So because the MOAC chose not to take them does that mean the FT and CB should just abandon what is best for them? What if the LCL did not really want NRidge would Utica and Johnstown stick around for the Vikings? Not in a million years...

It's the WAY they did it. If you can't understand that I don't know what else to tell you. All 4 schools applied to the MOAC, 2 got in. If they truly meant that they were sticking together, why accept the invitation? Ftown and Cburg made a decision...(to you and unsonicelc)...yes that decision was best for them, but they made it rather clear in the beginning that wherever they were going, they were going together. They had the power to say no to the invite and keep looking when EK and Danville didn't get in, but chose not do so, which left, as bluntly as I can put this, EK and Danville pretty much high and dry and isolated from any near conferences. Ftown is the "big prize" for any league because of how competitive they've been in recent years especially in boys sports. The only way those other schools were getting in to a decent conference was if Ftown (and Cburg, since they got in too) insist upon it. That didn't happen...they acted in the beginning of the process as if it was all 4 or none, and then once they got in the league they wanted in, went back on that. That's a pretty much as cut and dry of a case as you're going to see in HS athletics.

Again, as in my previous post, the FIRST schools to be notified that the LCL MIGHT reform and thus Utica, Jtown and Northridge would be leaving, were the other MBC schools, which is why the other MBC schools were applying to conferences before it was even official that Utica, Jtown and Northridge were in fact, 100% sure returning to the LCL. The three LC schools didn't mislead anyone, and they gave as much notice as they possibly could to the other schools. They basically said "this is what we are pretty sure is going to happen...if it happens, this is what we are going to do" and told EVERYBODY upfront. They didn't tell everybody something, and then do something else.

And we can play the what-if game all day long, but when the old LCL disbanded, perhaps your history is a little hazy. Utica, Jtown and Northridge did NOT all go to the same leagues, but generally where/Northridge goes they all end up.This is because Northridge has a such intense rivalries with each school, but those schools (Utica and Jtown) don't really have a huge rivalry with each other. So to answer your question, I would say that if the LCL for some strange reason invited everyone in the county except Northridge, Utica would be a definite no, with that being the primary reason, and reason 1B being that Utica has always been the hardest to convince of the 3 LC schools to rejoin a league that contains Newark Catholic. That meeting to vote lasted a LONG time and everything they had was deliberated on. Johnstown would probably at least consider it, because recent history suggests they would be the most likely of the 3 to be able to compete, and plus, it would help their playoff chances even more, getting a crack at a few bigger schools, but I think would also ultimately vote no because they would keep their rivalry with Northridge, they've had enough success in the MBC that they win conference titles and make postseasons consistently, and they're already familiar with the conference. After the old LCL disbanded, yes, each team did go there separate ways for a few years, but look where they all ended up...in the MBC, where Northridge was the first of the 3 to join. Jtown won't go anywhere without Northridge, Utica won't go anywhere without Northridge, and Northridge won't go anywhere without either. Too many rivalries.

And lastly, that's the beauty of having a league that is composed of all the smaller (i.e. non-division 1 schools) in a single county. All the schools get invites, because all the schools are in the county, so there really isn't a justifiable situation where Northridge or any LC school wouldn't get invited, regardless of how down they've been recently.

[Red_Skin_Pride]

Yeah it is a bad move... You ever been in the locker room at Danville? Sure stick around for those schools... Really...

Haha man how quickly you knox county people forget recent history. Sure, Danville is tiny, and their facilities are in need of some big upgrades but really..."those schools"?? That same school that kicked the s##t out of every school in your county for the better part of the last 20 years? You better enjoy the success while it lasts because it wasn't so long ago that the top dogs in Knox county the past few years weren't just in the cellar...they had a room with a view, cable, and comfy spot between 1-3 wins every year, while the Blue Devils were winning the conference almost every year in football, and pretty much put everyone else in to shame on a state level in several other sports. Care to guess that last team that won a state title in Knox county in any major sport?

[gamauter]

It has been a long time since it was Newark Catholic and 9 others. Right now their non league schedule is the only way they make the football playoffs. In most sports the MBC schools will be looking up at Watkins and Granville.

[hardscrabble]

The reality of the situation in in Knox County is this. Fredericktown and Centerburg have betrayed their fellow Knox County friends. This will not be forgotten by those people living in the Danville, Howard and Bladensburg communities for at least two generations. The reality of high school athletics, though, is that the high school principals and system superintendents come and go quite quickly and athletic directors remain in their positions a bit longer. Very few of these positions are ever filled by members of the community and these individuals could care less about tradition and the past, as long as they get their pay checks (not saying they don't do great jobs). So scheduling will continue between the schools I am sure.

So now the problem becomes what should Loudonville, East Knox and Danville do. I would suggest the they keep the MId-Buckye League going until either new members are obtained or all three go as a package to the ECOL or the NCC.

Also what if the "arrogant" Jonathon Alder community withdraws from the MOAC for an invite from the OCC this September. Would the MOAC reconsider East Knox and Danville under that scenario?

Also with Riverdale (Charter member of the NCC) unhappy with the divison foes all being on the east side of the NCC, should East Knox, Danville and Loudonville seek membership in the NCC. Possibly the NCC could admit Willard, East Knox, Loudonvile and Danville to form these Divisions.

Upper Sandusky Galion Ontario, Bucyrus, Riverdale, Willard and Wynford in the "West" division.

The "East" division would be made up of Colonel Crawford, Buckeye Central, Crestline, Loudonville, East Knox, Danville and Lucas.

[wantawinatitle]

Give it up... It is over... disbanding and moving on... If Danville and East Knox were such terrific fits they would have been given an invite... Is it possible that they did not do what they needed to do? Like, maybe their application was late or something else?

[greenwave]

i wonder when we find out oficially what teams are in what division for football and how many cross over games we will have. it will be hard to find 6 none league games in football. me personally wouldnt mind playing 3 crossover games and if northridge didnt want to they could find 6 non league games. grove city and fairfield christian are independent right now. i dont think you can wait too long to set up a schedule. the mvl has theires up to 2016 with their deal with the ecol.

[lmavcch3]

Wanta, everything , as to the application, etc. was done properly. Ftown and Cburg just left the other Knox schools hanging out to dry. When the 4 MBC schools applied to the moac, it was agreed among the schools to all go or none goes. The other schools were shocked when that pact was broken. From a personal standpoint I hope those schools get their rears handed to them in their new league. Also hope EK, Dville, and Lville land on their feet.

[wantawinatitle]

blah, blah, blah... There was no pact, cause if there were it would not have happened this way... I too hope that the other schools land in a great situation, but to blame someone else is as childish as me saying blah, blah, blah...

[lmavcch3]

Wanta, got it straight from an athletic directer and principal of one of the MBC schools about the "pact". The left out schools were surprised by the defection of the other two. I agree to blame without facts would be childish. Now to lay the blame at the feet of those responsible is a different matter. IMHO. Take care.

[hardscrabble]

So, what seems to be the consensus thinking in Loudonville, East Knox, and Danville at the moment?

Will they keep the M-BC going and try to invite schools to join?

Will all three or just East Knox and Danville apply to play in the ECOL?

Have the East Knox and Danville officials talked to the organizers of the "New' LCL about membership?

Is there anyone in the three schools being pro-active about this situation or are they still waiting for an invitation from some yet unkown source that will come along and provide an opportunity for their students to have a league in which to compete?

Any offers of guaranteed scheduling, particularly in football, coming from Centerburg and Fredericktown?

Are the communities fired up about this situation at all?