Resolving the Central Oho League Changes...Any Ideas????

[htsbuzzfan]

As I read through the threads I tried to think of ways that could resolve the problems associated with the creation of the Licking County League and the MOAC Expansion. I've been reading through the Mid Buckeye League Dissolving to just three teams, and how the MSL will eventually be left to three 6 team divisions. I've also read where there are many teams that are looking to become a part of these central Ohio leagues. As a result, below is what I have created. I'm aware that there might be some criticism for my ideas, I'm just thinking of ways that could resolve the league affiliation problems, and really interested in hearing how other people on the forum might align these teams, or others to resolve some of the issues. I also know that Canal, Teays, and a couple other schools in the MSL might look into applying for OCC membership, but the intention of my conferences is to stimulate discussion. I am also aware that the travel in the first division will be very, very difficult to overcome, especially with the rising prices of gas. I know a 2 hour bus ride for a conference game isn't a great idea, I'm just throwing around ideas.

DIVISON A - SMALL SCHOOL DIVISION
East Knox 5:19
Danville 6:23
Loudonville 5:19
Millersport 6:23
Harvest Prep 6:23
Berne Union 5:19
Fairfield Christian Academy 6:23
Worthington Christian 6:??

DIVISION B - MEDIUM SCHOOL DIVISION
Grandview Heights 5:19
Grove City Christian 6:23
Fisher Catholic 6:23
Columbus Academy 5:19
West Jefferson 5:20
Amanda C-C 4:15
Liberty Union 5:19
Bloom Carroll 4:15

DIVISION C - LARGE SCHOOL DIVISION
Canal Winchester 2:7
Teays Valley 2:7
Logan Elm 2:7
Circleville 3:12
Hamilton Twp. 3:10
Whitehall 3:10
Bexley 3:10
Fairfield Union 3:12

[buckeyedan]

I've lived in two other states and they didn't do HS leagues like we do

it's crazy to leave it up to the whim of school boards/local schools who change constantly

both states I lived in did it by Geography and Size...
they are assigned

that would solve a lot of isses

[Hank_Hill]

Division A above is a traveling nightmare

[Squirmydog]

As I read through the threads I tried to think of ways that could resolve the problems associated with the creation of the Licking County League and the MOAC Expansion. I've been reading through the Mid Buckeye League Dissolving to just three teams, and how the MSL will eventually be left to three 6 team divisions. I've also read where there are many teams that are looking to become a part of these central Ohio leagues. As a result, below is what I have created. I'm aware that there might be some criticism for my ideas, I'm just thinking of ways that could resolve the league affiliation problems, and really interested in hearing how other people on the forum might align these teams, or others to resolve some of the issues. I also know that Canal, Teays, and a couple other schools in the MSL might look into applying for OCC membership, but the intention of my conferences is to stimulate discussion. I am also aware that the travel in the first division will be very, very difficult to overcome, especially with the rising prices of gas. I know a 2 hour bus ride for a conference game isn't a great idea, I'm just throwing around ideas.

DIVISON A - SMALL SCHOOL DIVISION
East Knox 5:19
Danville 6:23
Loudonville 5:19
Millersport 6:23
Harvest Prep 6:23
Berne Union 5:19
Fairfield Christian Academy 6:23
Worthington Christian 6:??

DIVISION B - MEDIUM SCHOOL DIVISION
Grandview Heights 5:19
Grove City Christian 6:23
Fisher Catholic 6:23
Columbus Academy 5:19
West Jefferson 5:20
Amanda C-C 4:15
Liberty Union 5:19
Bloom Carroll 4:15

DIVISION C - LARGE SCHOOL DIVISION
Canal Winchester 2:7
Teays Valley 2:7
Logan Elm 2:7
Circleville 3:12
Hamilton Twp. 3:10
Whitehall 3:10
Bexley 3:10
Fairfield Union 3:12Not bad. I would switch GCC and Worthington Christian for 2 reasons. 1- GCC has yearly games with FCA and Danville in place already. 2- Worthington Christian is a D5 for football (136 boys) and is better in athletics overall at this point in time.

[hardscrabble]

A better option for Danville, East Knox and possibly Loudonville is the East Central Ohio League small school division to join River View, Coshocton, Zanesville Rosecrans, Claymont and Meadowbrook as members. Or possibly, to be invited to join the small school division of the Licking County League.

[buckeyedan]

2- Worthington Christian is a D5 for football (136 boys) and is better in athletics overall at this point in time.

well... if they actually fielded a team...

[htsbuzzfan]

I don't know, I still think that it would be better for these teams to join with teams from the MSL, in terms of competition

[JoeyB63]

It would take a 4 division/6 team to really make that array of teams work. You really have at least 10 teams that are actually d 4 type schools.

[buckeyedan]

there were some other mid-sized schools that showed interest last summer when the MSL talked expansion:
Westfall, London, Madison Plains, JA (thought they've joined a league I think)

I think it's going to be tough putting a school like AC in a league with a school like GCCS

D 2 and 3 work and D 6 works and to some extent 5

but finding a fit for the D4 schools is going to be tough (AC and BC)

[htsbuzzfan]

There are only two D-4 schools according in the chart above. I don't see how being D-4 in a D5-D6 conference would be a major obstacle. We were D-4 in '07 and were able to make the playoffs. It was the next year that we moved up to being a D-3 school that we would go 7-3, and what not, and not make the playoffs. Quite frankly, if you are a D-4 school and can't beat enough D-5 and D-6 schools then you really don't deserve to make the playoffs. That's why I'm in favor of overhauling the way OHSAA does the way they put schools in divisions. OHSAA should have a representative at each school that makes each coach turn in a roster of players at significant dates throughout the school year. Then, right before the season begins a final roster should be turned into OHSAA to account for the number of players on the team. At the end of the scholastic year, OHSAA could then take the average number of boys and/or girls on the roster from throughout the school year and align the divisions based on the average of the average of the number of players on the roster plus the total number of players on the final roster.

Sport: Football

Roster Count

Winter 1: 45 Winter 2: 40 Spring 1: 42 Spring 2: 50 Summer: 45 Final: 48

Average Of First 5 Roster Counts: 44.4 + Final Roster Count: 48 = 46.2 = Number Used for Division Status

I mean there are some schools that have a crazy amount athletes in their school, and I feel they should be considered a D-1 or D-2 program. For instance, not to put Newark Catholic on the spot, but I can recall going to watch them play us in a JV baseball game, and they had 25 JV baseball players, that's crazy. Whereas our school population is mostly due to move-ins from Somolia and other countries that have increased our school's division status from D-5 in '03 to D-2 in '11. I don't have any problems with the new move-ins, there are many that play sports, and there are many Somolians that are beginning to take an active interest in athletics, but the ratio is not a sufficient explanation for our school becoming a D-2 school.

[JoeyB63]

My reference to D4 was as it broke down to the other sports that are classifed D1 - D4. The balance of all sports would need to be involved, not just football. You put a school like GCC in the medium range division as above and you crush all of their programs. The way Fisher's enrollment continues to drop, they'd have a hard time competing in most sports.

[buckeyedan]

There are only two D-4 schools according in the chart above. I don't see how being D-4 in a D5-D6 conference would be a major obstacle.

really?
it goes both ways BTW - the small schools will eventually get tired of the bigger schools kicking their butt (look at LH and the cardinal)

In this case Fisher Catholic and particuarly GCCS wouldn't fit into that group at all...

I think if you replaced those two with somebody like Westfall, Madison Plains and/or London you might have something

with WC not having football and HP being in such a bad situation... boot those two from your first group and add GCCS and FC to that one and call it a day! (-:


We were D-4 in '07 and were able to make the playoffs. It was the next year that we moved up to being a D-3 school that we would go 7-3, and what not, and not make the playoffs.


actually in 2008 LH was still D4 retion 15... went 7-3 and finished 10th in region 15 (3, 3loss teams made it BTW)


Quite frankly, if you are a D-4 school and can't beat enough D-5 and D-6 schools then you really don't deserve to make the playoffs.

which... sorta is the reason you shouldn't be playing D5 and D6 teams isn't it?

D4 teams SHOULD be beating D5 and D6 teams... which is why putting them in a league is a missmatch that won't last long IMHO


That's why I'm in favor of overhauling the way OHSAA does the way they put schools in divisions.

that's a lot of work for the OHSAA... and would cost $

It's an interesting, well thought out idea

my concern is that... what makes for a person being on a "roster" in the off season? how on earth would you know in March who's going to play next year?



I mean there are some schools that have a crazy amount athletes in their school, and I feel they should be considered a D-1 or D-2 program.

that's the concept of a multiplier

the theory is that a public school deals with all types of student while a private school is selective by definition

the available pool is not, by definition, the same

I think there can be no question the a straight multiplier would pass
they nearly passed that crazy one this spring AND that included the amazingly unpopular "tradition" issue...
take that out and it passes easily (which those of us that are conspiracy theoriest think they knew... they knew a straight multiplier passes so they made it crazy so it wouldn't pass and they could claim a multiplier was not wanted)

[htsbuzzfan]

buckeyedan,

I will give you that Grove City Christian may not belong in the group above, and that Fisher is definitely at its lowest point in many years. The above chart is a hypothetical conference. I am hoping that Fisher will one day return to where it was before, so that is why I have grouped them in with these teams. I also believe that GCCS will thrive in the future of its athletics programs, and geographically this team would fit nicely. However, looking at the conferences I hypothesized, I think that adding Danville and East Knox into Division B and GCCS and FC into Division A might be a better idea, but it would be a conference that has 5 out of 8 teams that are private schools.

I know there is a lot on here about Worthington Christian not having a team yet, but they will, and as much as I dislike the program that has been run by HP, and the OHSAA sanctions that have followed, I still believe their athletic programs do deserve League alignment…the whole Harvest Prep deal probably deserves its own thread…

I did think about adding London, Madison Plains, etc… into the mix, but I just wanted to resolve the MBC, MSL, and other private school scenarios that have become a major concern among the board members. I do think it would be very interesting to see something with Westfall, West Jeff, and Madison Plains coming into the MSL, but I don’t know if those teams would want to leave, but I will admit I am not that familiar with these schools.

Thank You for correcting me on the history of our OHSAA division alignment BTW, but all of our wins were against teams that were against teams that were .500 or worst. We never beat a team that had a winning record, therefore we really didn’t have the quality of wins to deserve the playoffs.

I also see your point about D-4 that should be beating D-5 and D-6 teams, but I believe that in the case of this conference alignment the D-4 teams grouped with D-5 and D-6 teams will not always dominate the conference. I believe there is enough competition in Division B to propel Amanda C-C and Bloom Carroll into the playoffs if they are competitive. I mean West Jeff and Cols. Academy are very competitive D-5 schools, also Liberty Union is pretty completive in all sports. I guess I could see how this would be a major obstacle for D-4 teams if they were all terrible, but all these teams are pretty competitive. I think that at least one or two out of LU, WJ, and Cols. Academy would give Bloom Carroll and Amanda plenty of competition year in and year out, D-4 teams don’t always dominate the D-5/D-6 schools, they are kind of like that middle child in the family. They can compete with big brother at some things and little brother at some things.

Obviously, it would be a major concern and would be an area where the coach could lie about the number of players that are on his/her team at any point they take a number. However, and this is just a hypothetical idea that does not account for money, if OHSAA was to assign someone to each school, and create something comparable to the NCAA compliance department, in which the coach has to turn in roster numbers at given dates throughout the scholastic year, and report to this person, then you could make a better effort to keep the coach from lying about his roster number.

As far as what constitutes for a “roster number” the coach could just call a meeting during school for those students that intend to play football the next season. The coach and the OHSAA representative could both be at the meeting and collect the information from the students to get a count. The final roster could probably even account for more of the percentage in determining Division Alignment for the school the next season. Perhaps the average of the roster count in the off season could account for 30% and the final roster could account 70% of the final division determination.

Just some ideas…

[gamauter]

So Newark would be d-4 since they have a low turn out and LV d1-2?

[htsbuzzfan]

^^^^Yea, I suppose, if there is a more significant number of athletes at LV than Newark. Doesn't that make sense? Why should a school that has 40 kids and is D-1 be in the same division as teams that are like Cincinnati St. Xavier and has probably 3 times that many players.

[hoopscoop]

I think schools like London and Madison Plains would have to take a strong look at leagues in central Ohio, if anything for better recognition of their athletes. It isn't good when you are the only schools in your league in the central district

[htsbuzzfan]

Yea, I know that Madison Plains and West Jeff play each other in football on almost a regular basis, so it probably wouldn't be that odd to see another Madison County team in the MSL or an equivalent of that kinda conference.

[Weiskittle]

^^^^Yea, I suppose, if there is a more significant number of athletes at LV than Newark. Doesn't that make sense? Why should a school that has 40 kids and is D-1 be in the same division as teams that are like Cincinnati St. Xavier and has probably 3 times that many players.

Noe than 3 time's. Last I heard they 200 kids in there high school football program

[htsbuzzfan]

That's what I'm saying, those kind of programs need to compete against equivalent programs. I'm not saying there couldn't be a cinderella in the playoffs, but I'd much rather see the programs that actually do have the largest football teams in the state play one another, rather than the largest schools in the state. I don't think you would see a significant difference, say a D-6 football program jumping to D-1 or D-2 status using my method, but I think it is possible to see a D-6 program compete against comparable D-4 programs in the state. I also know that the number of kids there is on a team does not necessarily mean that the team will be successful, but it does allow the coach more substitutions and game management. Another side effect of using a roster count to determine division status is that it might also make the coaches more involved in students' eligibility and academic performance so that they can play as well. This method may also cause OHSAA to set up universal discretion for cutting a player from a roster or adding a player to a roster...just some ideas, and I know it is getting way off the thread topic I posted.

[gamauter]

So I just cut players to lower my number to play in a smaller division. I don't believe Valley has more athletes than Newark. They have more who play football. Valley would not do well playing Newark in basketball. It all comes down to what the school focuses on and at Newark for many it is not sports, or school.

[buckeyedan]

yea it's an interesting, well thought out idea but IMHO it's basically the same concept as a multiplier

the theory behind a multiplier is that a private school choolse their students while a public school must serve everyone... (From the above example St. X doesn't have to go find kids who don't want to show up (they kick them out/never let them in) or have a special needs population - the multiplier makes up for those portions of the population)

the issue with the "roster" concept I have is what makes up a roster?

like gamauter said - just "cut" players... it's just going to be very hard to track and very easy to manipulate (well our entier team didn't want to play any more but came to work outs just in case... then amazingly in August they decided they DID want to play!)

I think you are on the right track... and really are seeing the same issue I see and many other see (school population break downs)... I just think that's more complex than it needs to be

[bogey golfer]

I will take a shot at this. 1st a ten team small school league set up in 2 divisions like the new LCL is talking about. You could do divisions 2 different ways.

Public Division
Berne Union
Millersport
Grandview
Danville
East Knox

Private Division
Fisher Catholic
Fairfield Christian Academy
Columbus Academy
Harvest Prep
Grove City Christian

or

South Division
Berne Union
Millersport
Fisher Catholic
Fairfield Christian Academy
Grove City Christian

North Division
Grandview
Columbus Academy
Harvest Prep
Danville
East Knox

You would play 4 Division games 3 crossover games and 3 Non League games.

That would leave 12 teams so make 2 six team divisions

Large School
Canal Winchester
Teays Valley
Hamilton Township
Logan Elm
Circleville
Whitehall

Small School
Bexley
Fairfield Union
Bloom Carroll
Amanda Clearcreek
Liberty Union
West Jefferson

5 Division games 2 crossover 3 Non League.

If Canal and Teays leave bump Bexley or Fairfield Union into the Large School Divsion and use same setup as the 10 team small school division.